Rolling gas blackouts - how ?

Grizzlebeard · 5 October 2021 at 9:25AM

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

Don't you mean "forcing"? What about people with small/no gardens/flats etc - heat pumps need space
So when gas is priced out of reach of most individuals and some people have no choice as to reasonably priced alternatives - what's going to happen ?

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

Snip (photo)

All those ugly boxes with fans are air conditioning units, which are heat pumps which spend most of the time working in reverse.

In many hotter developed areas of the world the energy used to cool buildings down is as much of an eco problem as heating buildings in colder regions.

As global temperatures rise the "warm me/cool me" pivot is shifting the balance of energy use but not reducing it.

[Deleted User] · 5 October 2021 at 10:09AM

pallyman said:

the weather is now going to be better for windfarms and the electric from Norway is now coming online so there should be no need for power cuts .

And you trust the vikings?
!Look what they did in 793AD

merchcon55 · 5 October 2021 at 11:12AM

Grizzlebeard said:

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

Don't you mean "forcing"? What about people with small/no gardens/flats etc - heat pumps need space
So when gas is priced out of reach of most individuals and some people have no choice as to reasonably priced alternatives - what's going to happen ?

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

Snip (photo)

All those ugly boxes with fans are air conditioning units, which are heat pumps which spend most of the time working in reverse.

In many hotter developed areas of the world the energy used to cool buildings down is as much of an eco problem as heating buildings in colder regions.

As global temperatures rise the "warm me/cool me" pivot is shifting the balance of energy use but not reducing it.

You are 100% correct - I'm from New York City originally where summers are VERY VERY HOT. Most windows are sash type and the easiest way to install air conditioning (if you don't live in a building with combined central heating/central AC) is to simply buy an air con unit to the right size BTU required for the room (same calculations as you use to figure out what size radiator to put in a room), open the window - slide the air con in the window frame - and close the window on top of the unit. A few supporting screws and support bracket underside - and that's it !

In NYC most apartments are supplied with heat included in the rent or monthly maintenance fee, as it's a huge boiler for the entire building - as contrast to individual units per flat in most building here.

So it's your electric bill IN THE SUMMER that sky rockets. During very hot periods, quite often, the demand for electricity outstrips the supply - and in order to avoid blackouts (and I have lived through 2 such blackouts in NYC) - power needs to be cut.
Guess what happens to your air con unit? It simply does not work as well.

So unless there are secret plans to come up with a HUGE HUGE extra supply of electricity to run all the heat pumps they want us to get - the same thing will happen here on extreme cold days - cut back power to make sure the grid "does not trip" - and your heat pump , which is not designed for extreme cold - will now work to a lesser degree. WELL THOUGHT OUT PLAN - NOT !!

Heat pumps are quite common in USA - they are either used in parts of the country that do not get harsh winters, as they are NOT DESIGNED to heat sufficiently say at 0 degrees C. Or - they are used IN CONJUNCTION WITH traditional boilers (americans use the word furnace). You use the heat pump when the weather is not too cold, but when it gets COLD (and I was in NYC 2 winters ago - pre pandemic - where it never got above 0 degrees C for a week, with temps down to MINUS 15.

I should also point out that most American heating systems are forced air (dry heat) rather than water based (wet heat) as we use here in UK. I'm not sure dry heat works better for heat pumps or not.

While it does not get as extreme cold as that in UK, due to poor insulation and older housing stock here, even at 0C - which happens often enough - heating pumps simply will not do the job sufficiently !

[Deleted User] · 5 October 2021 at 11:18AM

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

Don't you mean "forcing"? What about people with small/no gardens/flats etc - heat pumps need space
So when gas is priced out of reach of most individuals and some people have no choice as to reasonably priced alternatives - what's going to happen ?

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

I thought that they were just fans
Where do they sink the heat energy to?

Gerry1 · 5 October 2021 at 11:38AM

Deleted_User said:

QrizB said:

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

I thought that they were just fans
Where do they sink the heat energy to?

Plain fans would be much small. The heat is dissipated into the atmosphere. Think of it as a device that extracts heat but withot extracting air. You can often see similar installations in the UK, and feel the warmth if they're in an alley.

QrizB · 5 October 2021 at 11:40AM

Deleted_User said:

QrizB said:

Deleted_User said:

Don't you mean "forcing"? What about people with small/no gardens/flats etc - heat pumps need space
So when gas is priced out of reach of most individuals and some people have no choice as to reasonably priced alternatives - what's going to happen ?

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

I thought that they were just fans
Where do they sink the heat energy to?

If they are running in forward cycle (as air conditioning) they will remove heat from the apartment and dump it to the outside air. If they are running in reverse cycle (as heaters) they will take heat from the outside air and move it into the apartment. It's quite elegant in operation even if it's ugly to look at.

merchcon55 said:

Heat pumps are quite common in USA - they are either used in parts of the country that do not get harsh winters, as they are NOT DESIGNED to heat sufficiently say at 0 degrees C. Or - they are used IN CONJUNCTION WITH traditional boilers (americans use the word furnace). You use the heat pump when the weather is not too cold, but when it gets COLD (and I was in NYC 2 winters ago - pre pandemic - where it never got above 0 degrees C for a week, with temps down to MINUS 15.

Heat pumps are designed to suit the climate in the target market. If you buy a heat pump to heat a home in the UK, it will work fine down to -15C or below. Check out the threads in the "other fuels" section, eg. danrv's recent installation (he's fitted a mini split system, but then he's heating a 3-bed semi).

Edit: here's the spec for danrv's outdoor unit:

https://data.toshiba-klima.at/en/Multisplit R32 - 7,50 kW - R32 - Home RAS-3M26U2AVG-E en.pdf

Grizzlebeard · 5 October 2021 at 1:26PM

Deleted_User said:

Here's a stock photo of an apartment block in (I think) Taiwan. See all those boxes with fans on them? They're heat pumps.

I thought that they were just fans
Where do they sink the heat energy to?

Simplest way to understand them is to consider them as inside-out fridges. They use energy to pump heat from inside the room into the street.

[Deleted User] · 5 October 2021 at 1:26PM

So they consume 2kW and give a heat output of 9kW - Thats pretty damned good ...

In an ideal world - this could be provided by 8 solar panels with battery back up

QrizB · 5 October 2021 at 1:41PM

Deleted_User said:

So they consume 2kW and give a heat output of 9kW - Thats pretty damned good ...
In an ideal world - this could be provided by 8 solar panels with battery back up

If you've got 30 minutes, this guy explains it better than I ever could: