Rolling gas blackouts - how ?

Farway

Deleted_User said:

Perhaps time to invest in a few batteries?
So at least we will.be able to see 

personally I'd go for old fashioned candles & a box of matches., pretty foolproof and will last for years in a drawer if not required

Robin9

@Gerry1 I don't know how widespread it was but the system used in the 1960's was a "Ripple Control System" -  the DNO I worked for  removed it in the late 1980's and fitted Tele Switches.

I do not say that Smart meters are not capable of doing this but there are other ways of doing it.

[Deleted User]

Gerry1 said:

Deleted_User said:

How would they restrict use of gas – in the event of gas shortages ?

They are unable to switch it off for periods of time (rolling outages) due to safety reasons

If suddenly cut off with no warning – when supply is switched back on again – there is a problem of potential gas leaks from appliances without working pilot lights

@Deleted_User Not so.  If you have an old boiler with a pilot light you usually have to press and hold a knob before you can light it so it's not a problem.  Similarly, cookers have a thermocouple to limit the oven flow if the flame goes out.

However, your smart meter's Shut Off Valve (SOV) can cut off your gas remotely so gas cuts can easily be implemented: the specification means that it must have "A component that can open or close (including on receipt of a Command to that effect) to Enable or Disable the flow of gas to Premises".

However, there's no risk of leaks or explosion because you have to switch off your appliances and press a button on the meter: it will only leave the supply turned on if there's no gas flow.  You can turn the gas appliances on only after it has made this check.  Utilita explain it here.

Wonder what happens if your smart meter turns your gas off when it's freezing and you're away on holiday?  If the boiler is always calling for heat then presumably the smart meter would keep refusing to turn on the supply, so you might return to find burst pipes?

As long as the safety protection is still working... 
Not alll boilers are serviced regularly 
The same question applies to Electric meters if you have a fridge freezer
Does it automatically come back on or do you need to manually reset? 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Gerry1 said:

Deleted_User said:

How would they restrict use of gas – in the event of gas shortages ?

They are unable to switch it off for periods of time (rolling outages) due to safety reasons

If suddenly cut off with no warning – when supply is switched back on again – there is a problem of potential gas leaks from appliances without working pilot lights

@Deleted_User Not so.  If you have an old boiler with a pilot light you usually have to press and hold a knob before you can light it so it's not a problem.  Similarly, cookers have a thermocouple to limit the oven flow if the flame goes out.

However, your smart meter's Shut Off Valve (SOV) can cut off your gas remotely so gas cuts can easily be implemented: the specification means that it must have "A component that can open or close (including on receipt of a Command to that effect) to Enable or Disable the flow of gas to Premises".

However, there's no risk of leaks or explosion because you have to switch off your appliances and press a button on the meter: it will only leave the supply turned on if there's no gas flow.  You can turn the gas appliances on only after it has made this check.  Utilita explain it here.

Wonder what happens if your smart meter turns your gas off when it's freezing and you're away on holiday?  If the boiler is always calling for heat then presumably the smart meter would keep refusing to turn on the supply, so you might return to find burst pipes?

The same question applies to Electric meters if you have a fridge freezer
Does it automatically come back on or do you need to manually reset? 

Think of it as a power cut. Your various electrical devices will come on when power is restored. 

[Deleted User]

Who, honestly believes that when this energy crisis is over that tariffs will ever reduce again?
Because once they are used to charging such high rates -suppliers are not going to reduce them and the government has no backbone.... 

phillw

Gerry1 said:
So why has all this complicated Load Limiting and Shedding functionality been developed and built in to domestic smart meters if it will never be used?  It makes them about 10 times as expensive as they would otherwise be, and we're all footing the bills for all that expense.  Was it really all just for fun?

How did you come up with the figure that smart meters are 10 times as expensive?

I imagine that it will only be effective once everyone HAVE smart meters.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/988831/Q1_2021_Smart_Meters_Statistics_Report.pdf

If there is not enough gas, then it doesn't really matter. Someone will have to go short.

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Who, honestly believes that when this energy crisis is over that tariffs will ever reduce again?
Because once they are used to charging such high rates -suppliers are not going to reduce them and the government has no backbone.... 

You really are a pessimist. In the unlikely event that the wholesale price was to fall back to historic norms, then so would the Ofgem Cap. The Cap was brought in to prevent the very thing that you are worried about. However, even if the wholesale price of gas remains constant, then cost per unit will likely increase year-on-year. It is well telegraphed that the Government intends to move green levies from electricity on to gas. They see an increase in gas prices as a way of gently nudging people into replacing gas boilers with heat pumps.

phillw

Deleted_User said:

Who, honestly believes that when this energy crisis is over that tariffs will ever reduce again?
Because once they are used to charging such high rates -suppliers are not going to reduce them and the government has no backbone.... 

I don't see the cap reducing ever, but if there are any domestic providers left then they will want to compete for business. If the wholesale price of gas goes down.

If you have a load of gas you are trying to sell then in the short term it's really good, but in the long term it's just going to accelerate movement away from fossil fuels and you'll be stuck with a load of gas that nobody needs.

I don't think anyone is going to keep the price artificially high.

phillw

coffeehound said:
The anti-nuclear lobby have a lot to answer for creating the energy gap, too

nuclear was subsidized because it wasn't coal and in the early days it seems cheap, but then you have a huge cost at the end to clean up the site. It's just burying the problem under the carpet for future generations.

Supporters of nuclear fission have a lot to answer for, we could have been spending all of that money on other technologies. But back in the 80's if you wanted an electric car and wind powered generators then you were seen as some kind of hippy weirdo.

QrizB

phillw said:

Deleted_User said:

Who, honestly believes that when this energy crisis is over that tariffs will ever reduce again?
Because once they are used to charging such high rates -suppliers are not going to reduce them and the government has no backbone.... 

I don't see the cap reducing ever, but if there are any domestic providers left then they will want to compete for business. If the wholesale price of gas goes down.

The cap has decreased in recent years, I'm not sure why do would rule out it happening agin in the future:

Chart from https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/price-cap/