Economy 7 Tariff Times not transparent

Gerry1

Switching on half an hour after the start of the cheap rate period helps to prevent unintended peak rate usage, but probably won't be the optimum for minimising water heating expenditure.  The tank will be hot after only an hour or two and then will lose heat throughout the remainder of the night.  It won't be a lot, and it will depend on how good the insulation is, but it'll be wasting some energy and money unnecessarily.  You wouldn't boil a kettle at lunchtime in order to brew a cup of tea in at teatime !

Try setting the start time for two or three a hours before the end of the cheap rate period.  Just before the Horstmann timing period, look at the meter's flashing red light (marked 1000 Imp/kWh or similar) or look at the spinning disk if it's an old one.  If it's still flashing or spinning merrily when the peak rate starts, set the start time a bit earlier and vice versa.  Same principle thing if the water doesn't stay hot all day, advance the start time until it does.

jrh22542254

slimbuck said:

jrh22542254 said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, ...

Not necessarily.

As I said, all the supplier needs to know is how much electricity is used and when. The new TOU tariffs that are being developed in conjunction  of smart meters do not switch anything. If they did, they would have to be switching every 30 minutes to coincide with constant variations in tariff.

Even if you restrict your view to E7 tariffs only which were a crude TOU tariff created for use with basic, non-smart metering, then not all those on E7 tariffs have any switching of circuits anyway.

It is only the customer who may need a switching on/off of circuits to allow their old wiring/appliances to continue to work with new smart metering. As far as the supplier is concerned, they would have no problems with making all circuits permanently live (as some with E7 non-smart meters already have)

This thread by the OP is about knowing the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this)
Moreover, it seems to be OP who originally believed their cheap rate was from 1am to 8am, is now upset to learn that their cheap rate actually ends at 07.15am. As the OP states, they have been going out of their way to consume electricity in the period 07.15am to 8.00 am.

If, as you seem to suggest, this was on a switched circuit, then the OP would have immediately known that they were not on low rate as the circuit would not have been live at that time.
The OP makes no such mention of any switched circuits.

Moreover, if you have a smart meter that the supplier obtains meter readings from every half hour, then you will see exactly what you are being charged as the bill would need to reflect usage, time of use, and associated cost. I think some suppliers even allow you to view this data online, particularly useful if you have thrown the IHD in the drawer.

I wasn't addressing the OP's particular situation with that comment, just politely correcting your statement where you said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

The suppliers now do have the facility to program TOU into smart meters through the cellular network.

Five-terminal Smart meters retain the facility to switch circuits with TOU tarrifs.  Four-terminal meters may still have a pilot terminal that can be used to control an external contactor for the same purpose

...
I have no idea what a switched circuit is !

Don't worry about it. I don't think it applies to you based on your subsequent posts.
@coffeehound introduced the notion into this thread, but then later admitted the post was not intended to assist you.

FYI, some people with E7 have some electrical circuits wired up within their property that only become live when the cheap rate is activated.
This allows for automatic switching on/off of hot water heating, NSHs, etc
As I said, looking at your posts, in particular the Horstmann water heating control, it seems your property is not wired that way; you have your own timer control to set when the hot water heats
(that timer requires a permanently live cicuit)

User instructions for how best to operate the Horstmann water heating control are readily available online (use google). I would recommend, if you do not already have a copy, that you download a copy and read them.

Thanks slimbuck. I waited at my teleswitch at 0714 this morning. Its was showing  'on' , so I waited until 0720 and nothing happened. It got to 0759 and 45 seconds and then an audible clunk and it switched to the off position. A few seconds later and another clunk , then it fell silent still in the off position. Now I am thoroughly confused. My Energy suppler says it switches at 0715 but it switched at 0800, which is what I was told many years ago.

jrh22542254

So in summary my supplier says it switches on at 0015 and off 0715, but having checked for the audible clunk and the switch moving to the off position, its actually switching off at 0759 and 45 seconds. Is this a teleswitch that's unique to my property or has my energy supplier got it wrong? This meter/teleswitch was installed in 1988 as far as I can remember? 

Swipe

Suppliers just guess, they have no real idea. You have now determined the times that are really applicable. If you are still unsure, put the immersion heater on for 5 minutes (from cold) and see which dial moves after the clunk.

Gerry1

Your nominal switching times are probably 0000 - 0700 winter and 0100 - 0800 summer, but you need to look at the meter around 0100 to confirm this.

I'm not aware of any region switching at xx15 (see the map) ; perhaps the relevant person was confused about the +/- 15 minutes tolerance?

dunstonh

Gerry1 said:

Your nominal switching times are probably 0000 - 0700 winter and 0100 - 0800 summer, but you need to look at the meter around 0100 to confirm this.

I'm not aware of any region switching at xx15 (see the map) ; perhaps the relevant person was confused about the +/- 15 minutes tolerance?

Meters can go out of sync over time.   Although I believe that is less common on circuit switching rather than timer based.

coffeehound

dunstonh said:

Gerry1 said:

Your nominal switching times are probably 0000 - 0700 winter and 0100 - 0800 summer, but you need to look at the meter around 0100 to confirm this.

I'm not aware of any region switching at xx15 (see the map) ; perhaps the relevant person was confused about the +/- 15 minutes tolerance?

Meters can go out of sync over time.   Although I believe that is less common on circuit switching rather than timer based.

From the OP's photo, it's a teleswitch so under direct control via the Radio 4 longwave signals.  I've got a vague recollection that East Mids used some sort of dynamic variable timing to manage loads so it might be they still do (?)  Which would be problematic for anyone setting timers manually . .

Gerry1

coffeehound said:

dunstonh said:

Gerry1 said:

Your nominal switching times are probably 0000 - 0700 winter and 0100 - 0800 summer, but you need to look at the meter around 0100 to confirm this.

I'm not aware of any region switching at xx15 (see the map) ; perhaps the relevant person was confused about the +/- 15 minutes tolerance?

Meters can go out of sync over time.   Although I believe that is less common on circuit switching rather than timer based.

From the OP's photo, it's a teleswitch so under direct control via the Radio 4 longwave signals.  I've got a vague recollection that East Mids used some sort of dynamic variable timing to manage loads so it might be they still do (?)  Which would be problematic for anyone setting timers manually . .

You just need to make sure the local timer keeps 15 minutes away from the teleswitch's nominal peak rate times.

jrh22542254

Gerry1 said:

Your nominal switching times are probably 0000 - 0700 winter and 0100 - 0800 summer, but you need to look at the meter around 0100 to confirm this.

I'm not aware of any region switching at xx15 (see the map) ; perhaps the relevant person was confused about the +/- 15 minutes tolerance?

Ok thanks Gerry. The actual email from Sainsburys Energy said,

"Hi

0194 01246 Weekdays & Weekends 0000-0015, 0715-2400 Day
0194 01247 All days 0015-0715 Night

Kind regards,"

Did I interpret this correctly and what do the numbers 019101246 & 7 mean?

Thank you.

jrh22542254

Checked my economy switch off times on three dates now and each time its switched off between 0759 and 35 to 45 seconds. So conclusion is dont believe what your energy supplier says , check yourself.