Economy 7 Tariff Times not transparent

jrh22542254

I was under the impression that my economy 7 tariff was between the hours of 1am and 8am. I looked through all my emails and documentation to see where I had been notified in my T&Cs prior to taking on my current supplier (Sainsburys). I could not find it anywhere. In the end I rang Sainsburys and they told me over the phone 12.15am to 7.15am. As you can imagine I was not very happy given I go out of way to use a lot of electricity between 7.15am and 8am!
So this got me thinking , the times should be part of the T&Cs. The T&Cs cant just say 'you are on economy 7', and expect the customer to find out what those times are ?
I checked my previous suppliers and they too dont appear to put the times in their T&Cs.
How can we change the system to make this a requirement?
Thank you.
 

slimbuck

jrh22542254 said:

I was under the impression that my economy 7 tariff was between the hours of 1am and 8am. I looked through all my emails and documentation to see where I had been notified in my T&Cs prior to taking on my current supplier (Sainsburys). I could not find it anywhere. In the end I rang Sainsburys and they told me over the phone 12.15am to 7.15am. As you can imagine I was not very happy given I go out of way to use a lot of electricity between 7.15am and 8am!
So this got me thinking , the times should be part of the T&Cs. The T&Cs cant just say 'you are on economy 7', and expect the customer to find out what those times are ?
I checked my previous suppliers and they too dont appear to put the times in their T&Cs.
How can we change the system to make this a requirement?
Thank you.
 

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

The switching times may not even be the same within the area of responsibilty of the DNO, and can depend on the type of meter you have and how it receives, if at all, a remote signal.

For example, old E7 meters often are often controlled by an internal electro-mechanical clock. With that ype of meter, you should be able to see what times the clock is set to switch at, as well as any offset in the time the clock is set to compared to the actual time.
Particularly with this type of old meter, and maybe with newer, remote controlled switching meters, the switching times does not allow for the clock time changes this country undergoes twice a year.

The installation of a smart meter should assist you in awareness of what rate you are being charged at, as well as allowing in theory an almost infinite number of multi rate tariffs in the future.

dunstonh

I was under the impression that my economy 7 tariff was between the hours of 1am and 8am. 

It varies across the regions and individual meters can go out of sync.  So, you cannot rely on the time.  Although its usually easy to check.

As you can imagine I was not very happy given I go out of way to use a lot of electricity between 7.15am and 8am!

It has nothing to do with the supplier.  So, irrespective of who you are with, the time would be 12.15am to 7.15am unless your meter is out of sync.

So this got me thinking , the times should be part of the T&Cs. The T&Cs cant just say 'you are on economy 7', and expect the customer to find out what those times are ?

Digital meters tend to have a sticker on them showing your times.   There are websites showing the regions and the times.

Also, with British Summer time, your timer may not change to take that into account.  Mine doesn't. 

My digital meter also loses time.  We haven't worked out why but its the second meter we have had in 3 years and both did it.   My best guess is certain power cuts stop the clock and being rural, we get about 5-6 power cuts a year.    Each month I read the meters to submit the reading, I also check the clock on the meter and make sure my device timers are syncronised with the meter timer.       I gain from that problem currently its about 4am to 1pm for my "night" rate.  (edit added, I just checked and my meter thinks it's 5.38am when it's actually 11.05am)

What type of meter do you have?   Is your E7 controlled by timer or signal?
if its digital and timer based, have you checked the time on it to see if it is correct?

Swipe

Te best thing you can do is stay up late one day and wake up early another and watch when they switch over. Even with a smart meter, the times specified will be offset by a few minutes. For example my EDF E7 smart meter times are specified as 7:30 to 00:30 (GMT) but they actually don't switch until 7:37 and 00:37

coffeehound

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

With the onset of Smart meters, the picture is (even) more complex.  In theory, they enable the utility supplier to program the meter remotely with the off-peak switching times.  How many actually do this though . . ?

Best to check the meter in person as Swipe suggested

Gerry1

Don't forget that in some areas the off peak seven hours can have a break in the middle, e.g. 2230 - 0030 and 0230 - 0730 in the winter and 2330 - 0130 and 0330 - 0830 in the summer.  Can be useful for 'double dipping', cheap rate last thing at night and first thing in the morning.

slimbuck

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

With the onset of Smart meters, the picture is (even) more complex.  In theory, they enable the utility supplier to program the meter remotely with the off-peak switching times.  How many actually do this though . . ?

I don't know, how many do actually do this???

I read about so many theories on the interweb.

Its best to try and think in a completely different way with regards to how to benefit from how a smart meters operates.

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

coffeehound

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, which is why TOU smart meters exist.  To do this switching, the meter needs to know the switching times.  This is achieved by the meter being programmed remotely by the utility provider.   The old method of instant switching by radio signal is not used by smart meters.

jrh22542254

Thanks for your replies. I attach a picture of my teleswitch, which was installed many years ago. Are you saying at 12.15am it changes to the 'on' position and at 7.15am it changes to 'off'?
If so I will check it tomorrow.
Many thanks.

slimbuck

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, ...

Not necessarily.

As I said, all the supplier needs to know is how much electricity is used and when. The new TOU tariffs that are being developed in conjunction  of smart meters do not switch anything. If they did, they would have to be switching every 30 minutes to coincide with constant variations in tariff.

Even if you restrict your view to E7 tariffs only which were a crude TOU tariff created for use with basic, non-smart metering, then not all those on E7 tariffs have any switching of circuits anyway.

It is only the customer who may need a switching on/off of circuits to allow their old wiring/appliances to continue to work with new smart metering. As far as the supplier is concerned, they would have no problems with making all circuits permanently live (as some with E7 non-smart meters already have)

This thread by the OP is about knowing the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this)
Moreover, it seems to be OP who originally believed their cheap rate was from 1am to 8am, is now upset to learn that their cheap rate actually ends at 07.15am. As the OP states, they have been going out of their way to consume electricity in the period 07.15am to 8.00 am.

If, as you seem to suggest, this was on a switched circuit, then the OP would have immediately known that they were not on low rate as the circuit would not have been live at that time.
The OP makes no such mention of any switched circuits.

Moreover, if you have a smart meter that the supplier obtains meter readings from every half hour, then you will see exactly what you are being charged as the bill would need to reflect usage, time of use, and associated cost. I think some suppliers even allow you to view this data online, particularly useful if you have thrown the IHD in the drawer.

jrh22542254

Swipe said:

Te best thing you can do is stay up late one day and wake up early another and watch when they switch over. Even with a smart meter, the times specified will be offset by a few minutes. For example my EDF E7 smart meter times are specified as 7:30 to 00:30 (GMT) but they actually don't switch until 7:37 and 00:37

Thanks Swipe. See picture of my teleswitch. I now notice it says 'on' and 'off' . Will check what it shows at 12.15am and then again at 7.16am Thanks.