Economy 7 Tariff Times not transparent

jrh22542254

dunstonh said:

I was under the impression that my economy 7 tariff was between the hours of 1am and 8am. 

It varies across the regions and individual meters can go out of sync.  So, you cannot rely on the time.  Although its usually easy to check.

As you can imagine I was not very happy given I go out of way to use a lot of electricity between 7.15am and 8am!

It has nothing to do with the supplier.  So, irrespective of who you are with, the time would be 12.15am to 7.15am unless your meter is out of sync.

So this got me thinking , the times should be part of the T&Cs. The T&Cs cant just say 'you are on economy 7', and expect the customer to find out what those times are ?

Digital meters tend to have a sticker on them showing your times.   There are websites showing the regions and the times.

Also, with British Summer time, your timer may not change to take that into account.  Mine doesn't. 

My digital meter also loses time.  We haven't worked out why but its the second meter we have had in 3 years and both did it.   My best guess is certain power cuts stop the clock and being rural, we get about 5-6 power cuts a year.    Each month I read the meters to submit the reading, I also check the clock on the meter and make sure my device timers are syncronised with the meter timer.       I gain from that problem currently its about 4am to 1pm for my "night" rate.  (edit added, I just checked and my meter thinks it's 5.38am when it's actually 11.05am)

What type of meter do you have?   Is your E7 controlled by timer or signal?
if its digital and timer based, have you checked the time on it to see if it is correct?

Thanks dunstonh. See picture of my teleswitch(so signal I think). I now notice it says 'on' and 'off' . Will check what it shows at 12.15am and then again at 7.16am I also have an economy 7 water clock on my boiler , is this still relevant for my system? Thanks.

Swipe

If you use your timer for heating water then the off peak time on your dial needs to coincide with the time the off peak E7 rate kicks in (or at least a little after as the thermostat should stop heating the tank once it get to the required temperature)

coffeehound

slimbuck said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, ...

Not necessarily.

As I said, all the supplier needs to know is how much electricity is used and when. The new TOU tariffs that are being developed in conjunction  of smart meters do not switch anything. If they did, they would have to be switching every 30 minutes to coincide with constant variations in tariff.

Even if you restrict your view to E7 tariffs only which were a crude TOU tariff created for use with basic, non-smart metering, then not all those on E7 tariffs have any switching of circuits anyway.

It is only the customer who may need a switching on/off of circuits to allow their old wiring/appliances to continue to work with new smart metering. As far as the supplier is concerned, they would have no problems with making all circuits permanently live (as some with E7 non-smart meters already have)

This thread by the OP is about knowing the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this)
Moreover, it seems to be OP who originally believed their cheap rate was from 1am to 8am, is now upset to learn that their cheap rate actually ends at 07.15am. As the OP states, they have been going out of their way to consume electricity in the period 07.15am to 8.00 am.

If, as you seem to suggest, this was on a switched circuit, then the OP would have immediately known that they were not on low rate as the circuit would not have been live at that time.
The OP makes no such mention of any switched circuits.

Moreover, if you have a smart meter that the supplier obtains meter readings from every half hour, then you will see exactly what you are being charged as the bill would need to reflect usage, time of use, and associated cost. I think some suppliers even allow you to view this data online, particularly useful if you have thrown the IHD in the drawer.

I wasn't addressing the OP's particular situation with that comment, just politely correcting your statement where you said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

The suppliers now do have the facility to program TOU into smart meters through the cellular network.

Five-terminal Smart meters retain the facility to switch circuits with TOU tarrifs.  Four-terminal meters may still have a pilot terminal that can be used to control an external contactor for the same purpose

slimbuck

coffeehound said:

...
I wasn't addressing the OP's particular situation with that comment, just correcting your statement where you said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

...

I think we'll need to agree to disagree if you could find anything in the statement I made and you have now quoted that you think needed correcting.

coffeehound

East Midlands region's nominal switching times are apparently 00.30 to 07.30, though they may vary a little from day to day to reduce demand surges on the grid.  

jrh22542254 you may hear an audible 'clunk' from your meter as it switches if it still has a contactor, which can help spot the switching times.

Once you know the switching times, set your Horstmann to come on half an hour after the start, and switch off 30 mins before the end of the cheap rate.  Water cylinders don't need the whole seven hours to heat up, so best to play it safe with the time settings there.

Gerry1

The switching times are unlikely to be exactly as published because the name of the game is to avoid having a massive surge if the whole region switches over at exactly the same moment.

The time are likely to be the same each night, but they can vary by +/- 15 minutes to accommodate specific eventualities.

Heat losses can be minimised by setting the local timer to switch off at least 15 minutes before the start of the morning peak rate period.  The heating duration (perhaps an hour or two) can be determined by experience.

J_B

coffeehound said:

East Midlands region's nominal switching times are apparently 00.30 to 07.30

Many moons ago ours in the west midlands used to be that, plus one hour in the summer.

jrh22542254

coffeehound said:

East Midlands region's nominal switching times are apparently 00.30 to 07.30, though they may vary a little from day to day to reduce demand surges on the grid.  

jrh22542254 you may hear an audible 'clunk' from your meter as it switches if it still has a contactor, which can help spot the switching times.

Once you know the switching times, set your Horstmann to come on half an hour after the start, and switch off 30 mins before the end of the cheap rate.  Water cylinders don't need the whole seven hours to heat up, so best to play it safe with the time settings there.

Thanks coffeehound. Good idea to start half an hour after the start as you dont want to potentially heat up a cold water tank with full price electricity. Also switching off half an hour before the end of the period - had I done this I might have saved a lot of money - for years I was using power up to 7.59am and 59 seconds in the mistaken belief it was 8am , when in fact it was 7.15am. Not only that but it time I switched supplier the timings changed. I still do think that when you switch it should be transparent as part of the T&Cs/tariff. 

jrh22542254

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, ...

Not necessarily.

As I said, all the supplier needs to know is how much electricity is used and when. The new TOU tariffs that are being developed in conjunction  of smart meters do not switch anything. If they did, they would have to be switching every 30 minutes to coincide with constant variations in tariff.

Even if you restrict your view to E7 tariffs only which were a crude TOU tariff created for use with basic, non-smart metering, then not all those on E7 tariffs have any switching of circuits anyway.

It is only the customer who may need a switching on/off of circuits to allow their old wiring/appliances to continue to work with new smart metering. As far as the supplier is concerned, they would have no problems with making all circuits permanently live (as some with E7 non-smart meters already have)

This thread by the OP is about knowing the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this)
Moreover, it seems to be OP who originally believed their cheap rate was from 1am to 8am, is now upset to learn that their cheap rate actually ends at 07.15am. As the OP states, they have been going out of their way to consume electricity in the period 07.15am to 8.00 am.

If, as you seem to suggest, this was on a switched circuit, then the OP would have immediately known that they were not on low rate as the circuit would not have been live at that time.
The OP makes no such mention of any switched circuits.

Moreover, if you have a smart meter that the supplier obtains meter readings from every half hour, then you will see exactly what you are being charged as the bill would need to reflect usage, time of use, and associated cost. I think some suppliers even allow you to view this data online, particularly useful if you have thrown the IHD in the drawer.

I wasn't addressing the OP's particular situation with that comment, just politely correcting your statement where you said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

The suppliers now do have the facility to program TOU into smart meters through the cellular network.

Five-terminal Smart meters retain the facility to switch circuits with TOU tarrifs.  Four-terminal meters may still have a pilot terminal that can be used to control an external contactor for the same purpose

Yes you are correct , I originally only wanted to know about the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this). I still think that the energy supplier should state the times clearly in their T&Cs and would like to know how we could go about changing the current way in which the Energy Suppliers operate so customers are better served and can make informed choices.
I have no idea what a switched circuit is !

slimbuck

jrh22542254 said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

coffeehound said:

slimbuck said:

Surely a supplier only needs to know how much energy is used when. They can currently obtain this information via a smart meter if they receive meter readings every 30 minutes. Then they can bill according to that usage data received. There are several suppliers that can already operate this way and offer tariffs accordingly.

The meter needs to be able to switch circuits on and off too, ...

Not necessarily.

As I said, all the supplier needs to know is how much electricity is used and when. The new TOU tariffs that are being developed in conjunction  of smart meters do not switch anything. If they did, they would have to be switching every 30 minutes to coincide with constant variations in tariff.

Even if you restrict your view to E7 tariffs only which were a crude TOU tariff created for use with basic, non-smart metering, then not all those on E7 tariffs have any switching of circuits anyway.

It is only the customer who may need a switching on/off of circuits to allow their old wiring/appliances to continue to work with new smart metering. As far as the supplier is concerned, they would have no problems with making all circuits permanently live (as some with E7 non-smart meters already have)

This thread by the OP is about knowing the times/prices that apply. (and expecting the energy supplier to know and advise this)
Moreover, it seems to be OP who originally believed their cheap rate was from 1am to 8am, is now upset to learn that their cheap rate actually ends at 07.15am. As the OP states, they have been going out of their way to consume electricity in the period 07.15am to 8.00 am.

If, as you seem to suggest, this was on a switched circuit, then the OP would have immediately known that they were not on low rate as the circuit would not have been live at that time.
The OP makes no such mention of any switched circuits.

Moreover, if you have a smart meter that the supplier obtains meter readings from every half hour, then you will see exactly what you are being charged as the bill would need to reflect usage, time of use, and associated cost. I think some suppliers even allow you to view this data online, particularly useful if you have thrown the IHD in the drawer.

I wasn't addressing the OP's particular situation with that comment, just politely correcting your statement where you said:

slimbuck said:

It is not the responsibility of your energy supplier to inform you of the switching times of E7. It never has been their responsibilty.

The switching times are set by your local DNO, but will provide you with 7 hours of low rate electricity. Your supplier only sets the rates that that you are charged at.

The suppliers now do have the facility to program TOU into smart meters through the cellular network.

Five-terminal Smart meters retain the facility to switch circuits with TOU tarrifs.  Four-terminal meters may still have a pilot terminal that can be used to control an external contactor for the same purpose

...
I have no idea what a switched circuit is !

Don't worry about it. I don't think it applies to you based on your subsequent posts.
@coffeehound introduced the notion into this thread, but then later admitted the post was not intended to assist you.

FYI, some people with E7 have some electrical circuits wired up within their property that only become live when the cheap rate is activated.
This allows for automatic switching on/off of hot water heating, NSHs, etc
As I said, looking at your posts, in particular the Horstmann water heating control, it seems your property is not wired that way; you have your own timer control to set when the hot water heats
(that timer requires a permanently live cicuit)

User instructions for how best to operate the Horstmann water heating control are readily available online (use google). I would recommend, if you do not already have a copy, that you download a copy and read them.