On behalf of my Mum - DCBLegal - letter of claim

sickofppc

So, to update, a couple letters went back and forth with DCBLtd, and they replied with some info and tried to play some tennis here, but the attached arrive today.

I have the SAR request from UKPC already, and I can't pull anything apart, other than the "period" of parking not being available, or legible evidence of the parking signage. 

My mum will certainly not go to court to fight this ticket, but I said I would help best I can to deal with the correspondence for her.

Please could you help me with the next steps, as I'm not sure I should be going straight in with a reply being:

(a) I am seeking debt advice but I deny any debt and the case must be put 'on hold' for not less than 30 days under the PAP for debt claims 2017.
(b) I have sent your client a SAR
(c) also confirm your correct 'address for service' if you've moved and the PPC has two addresses.

Thank you in advance!

Le_Kirk

If you have not previously submitted a SAR, now is the time to do so.  Send the 30 day hold e-mail, you don't need to tell them you have submitted a SAR.  The instruction at c) is for you to confirm to the claimant that your address for service is correct.

sickofppc

Le_Kirk said:

If you have not previously submitted a SAR, now is the time to do so.  Send the 30 day hold e-mail, you don't need to tell them you have submitted a SAR.  The instruction at c) is for you to confirm to the claimant that your address for service is correct.

Thank you - I have the SAR from the PPC.

sickofppc

sickofppc said:

So, to update, a couple letters went back and forth with DCBLtd, and they replied with some info and tried to play some tennis here, but the attached arrive today.

I have the SAR request from UKPC already, and I can't pull anything apart, other than the "period" of parking not being available, or legible evidence of the parking signage. 

My mum will certainly not go to court to fight this ticket, but I said I would help best I can to deal with the correspondence for her.

Please could you help me with the next steps, as I'm not sure I should be going straight in with a reply being:

(a) I am seeking debt advice but I deny any debt and the case must be put 'on hold' for not less than 30 days under the PAP for debt claims 2017.
(b) I have sent your client a SAR
(c) also confirm your correct 'address for service' if you've moved and the PPC has two addresses.

Thank you in advance!

I wanted to note, I am willing to do the Court side of things on behalf of my Mum if I also knew that I could/what additional forms to complete for me to "act" on her behalf?

Jenni_D

No forms to complete - you simply do all the paperwork in her name which she signs, and then if it reaches a hearing then you can act as her Lay Representative which means you speak for her, but she must still attend.

sickofppc

Thank you

I've been struggling to think about the defence here (obviously had time to think and research). 

Re- POFA there is no PERIOD of parking, only the time stamp, otherwise everything appears to be in line on the POFA front.

DVLA access was all above board too.

The only other things was that there were no entry signs to the land, which were not in line with BPA guidelines. Unfortunately, UKPC no longer operate there so I can't take pictures to confirm this. I did, however, in 2019, take Googlemap screen shots that there were no entry signs which are time stamped accordingly. I also have documentation from a previous vehicle successfully cancelling PCN's with UKPC because of this entry sign issue.

Furthermore, the signage is not evidence in the SAR request. It is not legible. Should I ask this as part of the SAR and reply to them with this question? Or does this open a can of worms? I do have from a previous case the "signage" in pdf version, but not an actual photograph version where the sign is a "forbidding sign".

I understand that it can be defended as follows, but require clarity here?

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et al B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6 [2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.
In the case of UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6 [2016];

“I am not able to consider that that is an open offer to contract to park at first sight. If anything, it prohibits unauthorised parking on my reading of it. If I am wrong in that then I have to consider whether the inclusion of the wording, “Terms of parking apply at all times”, in any way invalidates my view that the signage seeks to prohibit unauthorised parking.
Taken from the transcript of PCM-UK v Bull et al B4GF26K6 [2016];
“This notice is an absolute prohibition against parking at any time, for any period, on the roadway. It is impossible to construct out of this in any way, either actually or contingently or conditionally, any permission for anyone to park on the roadway. All this is essentially saying is you must not trespass on the roadway."


To summarise defence would be:

1. no period as per POFA which would determine the period the car was "parked"
2. no entry sign to the land as per BPA guidelines
3. no legible parking sign in evidence
4. if I am meant to get the sign from UKPC forwarding on the SAR, then I can use the forbidding reasoning as per above


Is there any other angle I can make this defence strong that someone could help with?


Many thanks!

Coupon-mad

Look at the template defence and a few claim threads to see how other people have adapted the facts paragraphs, that will help you prepare.

And please do the vital public Consultation and email to your MP!   Also, please share on other forums, social media and certainly with your MP:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6286801/government-consultation-re-private-parking-charge-levels-august-2021-please-bookmark-this-thread/p1

We are calling for everyone to do a full and robust response by email to the MHCLG, attaching evidence of what happened to you and what you think is wrong about £100 charges and fake debt recovery ‘fees’ that no PPC actually incurs or pays.

We also need people to contact their MP to ask questions about why the MHCLG appear to have reneged on their March promise to cap parking charges, and why instead they propose to fund the race to court at £70 a time from victims

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78517562/#Comment_78517562

Sorry if preaching to the converted but anyone reading this:
PLEASE DO THIS IF YOU WANT CONSUMER VOICES TO OUTWEIGH THE PARKING INDUSTRY’S GREED. WHICH SEES THEM TRY TO CLAIM MORE THAN THE LAW ALLOWS, FROM A REGISTERED KEEPER,

I just looked at the POFA Explanatory Notes (part of the legislation):

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/notes/division/5/1/3/3

221.Paragraph 4 provides that the creditor has a right to recover unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the relevant vehicle if the conditions set out in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 are satisfied. The creditor is not obliged to pursue unpaid parking charges through this scheme and may seek to do so through other means but they may not use the scheme provided for here to secure double recovery of unpaid parking charges (paragraph 4(6)), nor will they have the right to pursue the keeper, as opposed to the driver, of the vehicle where they have sufficient details of the driver’s identity. The right to reclaim unpaid parking charges from the vehicle keeper does not apply in cases where the vehicle has been stolen before it was parked, (paragraphs 4(2) to (3)), or in certain circumstances where the vehicle in question was a hire vehicle (paragraph 4(7)). The creditor may not make a claim against the keeper of a vehicle for more than the amount of the unpaid parking related charges as they stood when the notice to the driver was issued (paragraph 4(5)).

sickofppc

Coupon-mad said:

Why aren’t you just looking at the template defence and a few claim threads to see how other people have adapted the facts paragraphs?

I assume you’ve done the vital public Consultation and email to your MP that we are all discussing?  

Everyone must, please share on other forums, social media and certainly with your MP:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6286801/government-consultation-re-private-parking-charge-levels-august-2021-please-bookmark-this-thread/p1

We are calling for everyone to do a full and robust response by email to the MHCLG, attaching evidence of what happened to you and what you think is wrong about £100 charges and fake debt recovery ‘fees’ that no PPC actually incurs or pays. It is shocking that the Government seems not to realise what they are doing by thinking PPCs actually incur a recover fee, which they don’t.

We also need people to contact their MP to ask questions about why the MHCLG appear to have reneged on their March promise to cap parking charges, and why instead they propose to fund the race to court at £70 a time from victims

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78517562/#Comment_78517562

sorry if preaching to the converted but anyone reading this: PLEASE DO THIS IF YOU WANT CONSUMER VOICES TO OUTWEIGH THE PARKING INDUSTRY’S PLAUSIBLE BS.

Because I didn't want to copy something that wasn't relevant to this case? Perhaps there was something someone could add that could help?

I know that some people have contacted the legal company stating why this is null and void before getting to the claim, without giving too many details. Is this a big NO-NO?

Umkomaas

Why are you getting so hung up about a defence?  You're not at that stage at the moment. By all means think about it, read the pinned Announcement with the template defence and the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post, but don't get consumed by it. 

I've yet to see DCBL front any UKPC court claim - UKPC preferred lawyers for such cases are SCS Law and normally only where multiple unpaid tickets are involved. 

If DCB Legal issue a court claim via the Northampton CCBC, then let's deal with that then; you'll get over a month to sort it all out. 

sickofppc

Umkomaas said:

Why are you getting so hung up about a defence?  You're not at that stage at the moment. By all means think about it, read the pinned Announcement with the template defence and the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post, but don't get consumed by it. 

I've yet to see DCBL front any UKPC court claim - UKPC preferred lawyers for such cases are SCS Law and normally only where multiple unpaid tickets are involved. 

If DCB Legal issue a court claim via the Northampton CCBC, then let's deal with that then; you'll get over a month to sort it all out. 

Ok - thank you.

I haven’t done this before and want to get it right :-:smile:

so to clarify, I simply just reply with the 30 day hold, and leave it at that for them to make contact again?