Power of Attorney question.

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  • Sea_Shell
    Sea_Shell Posts: 9,369 Forumite
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    Pollycat said:

    pphillips said:
    But the OPG won't stop the registration of more than one type of LPA if the donor still has mental capacity to make a new LPA. So it's wrong to say that you can't have more than one of each type.

    The responsibility lies solely with donor to decide whether or not to revoke any of their registered Powers of Attorney, while they still have mental capacity to do so.

    A donor can't revoke a registered LPA like a will, by destroying it because the attorneys can then ask the OPG for an office copy. Also a donor can't revoke it by adding a revocation clause to a new LPA, what is actually required is a separately witnessed deed of revocation using a particular form of words.


    You are talking about a new LPoA.

    The OPG will not allow more than one LPoA for each category with different attorneys at any one time..
    There cannot be more than one valid health & welfare LPoA.
    There cannot be more than one valid property & financial affairs LPoA.

    If the donor still has capacity and wishes to change LPoA:

    Change your lasting power of attorney

    You can ask the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to change your lasting power of attorney (LPA) if it’s been registered and you still have mental capacity to make decisions.

    A new LPoA can't be set up whilst one is already in place - which is what the OP says has happened.





    Does this actually happen in practice though.    How thoroughly do the OPG check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved?   

    Could it be that additional LPoAs get approved when they shouldn't, especially in these "Covid excuse" days of pressure on services?
    How's it going, AKA, Nutwatch? - 12 month spends to date = 2.31% of current retirement "pot" (as at end March 2024)
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,680 Forumite
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    Sea_Shell said:

    Does this actually happen in practice though.    How thoroughly do the OPG check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved?   

    Could it be that additional LPoAs get approved when they shouldn't, especially in these "Covid excuse" days of pressure on services?

    I would expect the OPG to check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved all the time in practice (although I'm not saying mistakes don't happen).

    LPoAs are very important documents.
     

  • Sea_Shell
    Sea_Shell Posts: 9,369 Forumite
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    Pollycat said:
    Sea_Shell said:

    Does this actually happen in practice though.    How thoroughly do the OPG check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved?   

    Could it be that additional LPoAs get approved when they shouldn't, especially in these "Covid excuse" days of pressure on services?

    I would expect the OPG to check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved all the time in practice (although I'm not saying mistakes don't happen).

    LPoAs are very important documents.
     


    Maybe an investigation should take place to check to ensure this isn't happening routinely, rather than the odd error.   

    ie, send in a "duplicate" correctly completed, signed and witnessed LPA, but with amended attorneys, and see what happens!!!

    There could be too many slipping through the net.      Like you say they are VERY important documents, so any mishandling of applications should be taken very seriously too.

    How's it going, AKA, Nutwatch? - 12 month spends to date = 2.31% of current retirement "pot" (as at end March 2024)
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,680 Forumite
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    edited 26 April 2021 at 8:30AM
    Sea_Shell said:
    Pollycat said:
    Sea_Shell said:

    Does this actually happen in practice though.    How thoroughly do the OPG check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved?   

    Could it be that additional LPoAs get approved when they shouldn't, especially in these "Covid excuse" days of pressure on services?

    I would expect the OPG to check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved all the time in practice (although I'm not saying mistakes don't happen).

    LPoAs are very important documents.
     


    Maybe an investigation should take place to check to ensure this isn't happening routinely, rather than the odd error.   

    ie, send in a "duplicate" correctly completed, signed and witnessed LPA, but with amended attorneys, and see what happens!!!

    There could be too many slipping through the net.      Like you say they are VERY important documents, so any mishandling of applications should be taken very seriously too.


    If the OPG feel an investigation is necessary, I'm sure they'll instigate one.
    I'm not sure we can comment sensibly without knowing their processes for checking existing records before registering a new LPoA.

    Personally I'm not convinced by the OP's allegation that - despite him holding "LPOA health and finance" - his siblings later applied for LPoA and now "all 4 have it" [LPoA] without further clarification from the OP.
    To me (and I think other posters feel the same), the OP's posts are unclear.

    So I'm personally not of the opinion that the OPG are not thoroughly checking existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved, simply based on what the OP has said so far.

     
  • ps2659
    ps2659 Posts: 530 Forumite
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    Pollycat said:
    Sea_Shell said:
    Pollycat said:
    Sea_Shell said:

    Does this actually happen in practice though.    How thoroughly do the OPG check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved?   

    Could it be that additional LPoAs get approved when they shouldn't, especially in these "Covid excuse" days of pressure on services?

    I would expect the OPG to check existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved all the time in practice (although I'm not saying mistakes don't happen).

    LPoAs are very important documents.
     


    Maybe an investigation should take place to check to ensure this isn't happening routinely, rather than the odd error.   

    ie, send in a "duplicate" correctly completed, signed and witnessed LPA, but with amended attorneys, and see what happens!!!

    There could be too many slipping through the net.      Like you say they are VERY important documents, so any mishandling of applications should be taken very seriously too.


    If the OPG feel an investigation is necessary, I'm sure they'll instigate one.
    I'm not sure we can comment sensibly without knowing their processes for checking existing records before registering a new LPoA.

    Personally I'm not convinced by the OP's allegation that - despite him holding "LPOA health and finance" - his siblings later applied for LPoA and now "all 4 have it" [LPoA] without further clarification from the OP.
    To me (and I think other posters feel the same), the OP's posts are unclear.

    So I'm personally not of the opinion that the OPG are not thoroughly checking existing records before a "new" application is processed and approved, simply based on what the OP has said so far.

     
    Thanks for everyone's comments I am not used to these LPOA issues, I am more confused by the comments as you probably are with my initial post, I may not have explained things as clear as I should have, however I have telephoned the OPG today and after going through security and supplying my reference number it was confirmed that I still hold LPOA for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum, when I asked the lady if anyone else could also apply for the same LPOA on the same donor she replied YES when I asked if she could tell me the names of anyone who was registered for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum she was unable to tell me this information she just gave me the OPG website details and told me to fill in a form requesting details of who has LPOA on my mum and they would contact me by email in 5 to 10 days. Once again thanks for your assistance and I will get back when any information has been received.      
  • mrschaucer
    mrschaucer Posts: 953 Forumite
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    ps2659 said:
    however I have telephoned the OPG today and after going through security and supplying my reference number it was confirmed that I still hold LPOA for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum, when I asked the lady if anyone else could also apply for the same LPOA on the same donor she replied YES when I asked if she could tell me the names of anyone who was registered for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum she was unable to tell me this information she just gave me the OPG website details and told me to fill in a form requesting details of who has LPOA on my mum and they would contact me by email in 5 to 10 days. Once again thanks for your assistance and I will get back when any information has been received.      
    That just raises even more questions.  Does no-one inform the existing Attorneys when things change?  Isn't all this ripe for ill-doing by all sorts of unscrupulous people once they realise how easy it is to scam the system?
  • Flugelhorn
    Flugelhorn Posts: 5,573 Forumite
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    ps2659 said:
    however I have telephoned the OPG today and after going through security and supplying my reference number it was confirmed that I still hold LPOA for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum, when I asked the lady if anyone else could also apply for the same LPOA on the same donor she replied YES when I asked if she could tell me the names of anyone who was registered for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum she was unable to tell me this information she just gave me the OPG website details and told me to fill in a form requesting details of who has LPOA on my mum and they would contact me by email in 5 to 10 days. Once again thanks for your assistance and I will get back when any information has been received.      
    That just raises even more questions.  Does no-one inform the existing Attorneys when things change?  Isn't all this ripe for ill-doing by all sorts of unscrupulous people once they realise how easy it is to scam the system?
    This is amazing - so you could have someone having  assorted friends / family members with a POA each ??  Not sure what the banking systems would do - probably ban all of them.
    I know if I had been presented with 2 LPOA for H&W when working with a GP it would have raised significant concerns as to what was going on 
  • 74jax
    74jax Posts: 7,921 Forumite
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    ps2659 said:
    however I have telephoned the OPG today and after going through security and supplying my reference number it was confirmed that I still hold LPOA for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum, when I asked the lady if anyone else could also apply for the same LPOA on the same donor she replied YES when I asked if she could tell me the names of anyone who was registered for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum she was unable to tell me this information she just gave me the OPG website details and told me to fill in a form requesting details of who has LPOA on my mum and they would contact me by email in 5 to 10 days. Once again thanks for your assistance and I will get back when any information has been received.      
    That just raises even more questions.  Does no-one inform the existing Attorneys when things change?  Isn't all this ripe for ill-doing by all sorts of unscrupulous people once they realise how easy it is to scam the system?
    This is amazing - so you could have someone having  assorted friends / family members with a POA each ??  Not sure what the banking systems would do - probably ban all of them.
    I know if I had been presented with 2 LPOA for H&W when working with a GP it would have raised significant concerns as to what was going on 
    Me too when working in banking.

    I'd probably have had to call to see which was 'legal' but if I was told 'both of them' as the op suggests, I have zero idea what I would have done..... 
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 32,716 Forumite
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    edited 27 April 2021 at 8:39PM
    ps2659 said:
    however I have telephoned the OPG today and after going through security and supplying my reference number it was confirmed that I still hold LPOA for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum, when I asked the lady if anyone else could also apply for the same LPOA on the same donor she replied YES when I asked if she could tell me the names of anyone who was registered for health and welfare and finance and property for my mum she was unable to tell me this information she just gave me the OPG website details and told me to fill in a form requesting details of who has LPOA on my mum and they would contact me by email in 5 to 10 days. Once again thanks for your assistance and I will get back when any information has been received.      
    That just raises even more questions.  Does no-one inform the existing Attorneys when things change?  Isn't all this ripe for ill-doing by all sorts of unscrupulous people once they realise how easy it is to scam the system?
    The person completing the LPA presumably. Remember the LPA must be freely given by the person when they have capacity. So it’s their choice as to who they inform and when.

     I couldn’t just take one out on my mother without her knowledge unless I was forging her signature. 
    Any dodgy dealings are open to challenge via the OOG. 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • ps2659
    ps2659 Posts: 530 Forumite
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    edited 29 April 2021 at 7:50PM

    UPDATE letter from OPG I have taken out names and dates and would be interested in any comments.


    XX April 2021

    Dear Mr xxxxxx

    Lasting powers of attorney register search results for MUM Date of search: XXApril 2021 The Office of the Public Guardian registered a pair of lasting powers of attorney (LPAs) in 2019 Decisions that can be made under the LPAs relate to property and financial affairs and health and welfare The LPAs list the following attorney: ME


    Register search results for MUM (date of birth xx/xx/xxxx)

    Today we carried out the search you requested of the Office of the Public Guardian lasting power of attorney register. Information we hold on our registers Based on the information you gave us we found a result on our registers, which we have attached to this letter. This is all the information we hold for MUM on this register.


    The Office of the Public Guardian registered a lasting power of attorney (LPA) in 2020

    Decisions that can be made under the LPA relate to property and financial affairs and health and welfare The LPA lists the following attorneys: Mrs XXX Mr XXX Mr XXX The attorneys are appointed to act jointly The LPA is registered There are no restrictions on how the attorneys can act


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