Power of Attorney question.

My Mum is in a care home I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia , once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied together for both LPOAs, I told them mum had given me £5000.00 to make sure she was buried when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they have taken mum to the bank and told her to transfer £3000.00 to each of them to there own bank accounts, so my questions are. 1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ? 2. Her three other sibling some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them (not convinced she knew what was happening) 3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with. 4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 siblings and not for mum is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.
I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.

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  • ps2659
    ps2659 Posts: 529
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    ps2659 said:

    My Mum is in a care home I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia , once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied together for both LPOAs, I told them mum had given me £5000.00 to make sure she was buried when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they have taken mum to the bank and told her to transfer £3000.00 to each of them to there own bank accounts, so my questions are. 1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ? 2. Her three other sibling some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them (not convinced she knew what was happening) 3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with. 4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 siblings and not for mum is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.
    I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.

    Any advice please
  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 45,838
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    I'm afraid I couldn't really understand the situation. If your mum appointed you as her attorney, how did your siblings become attorneys? As far as I know, that could only be done if your mother made a new LPA naming them - so are you still her attorney or not? Either acting alone, or with your siblings? If your mum has made a new LPA, someone would have acted as Certificate Provider to confirm she knew what she was doing. 

    And you talk both about your siblings, and her siblings - is that a mistake? 

    The use of your mother's money is slightly nuanced, to me. If your mother was not capable of managing her affairs, then attorneys should only act in her best interests, and that wouldn't normally include giving large sums away. But if she herself went to the bank and transferred the money, then she's entitled to do so. You're not convinced she knew what was happening - but could you prove she didn't? 

    Of course if she was coerced into transferring money, that's not OK. But would you be able to prove it? If it was obvious to the bank that she didn't know what she was doing and was being coerced, they ought to have said or done something at the time, but the level at which they feel concern may be higher than mine or yours. And at the time, your mother may have appeared perfectly competent. 

    Action on Elder Abuse may be worth contacting, but if you want legal advice, you need to speak to a solicitor. 
    Signature removed for peace of mind
  • pphillips
    pphillips Posts: 1,631
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    ps2659 said:
    ps2659 said:

    My Mum is in a care home I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia , once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied together for both LPOAs, I told them mum had given me £5000.00 to make sure she was buried when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they have taken mum to the bank and told her to transfer £3000.00 to each of them to there own bank accounts, so my questions are. 1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ? 2. Her three other sibling some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them (not convinced she knew what was happening) 3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with. 4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 siblings and not for mum is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.
    I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.

    Any advice please
    Here:

     https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian
  • Keep_pedalling
    Keep_pedalling Posts: 16,233
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    You do need to clarify the situation on the LPAs, either you are her sole attorney or since you became attorney, new LPAs have been put in place which means you are no longer attorney and you siblings have taken your place. 

    As for the funeral, rather than give you money to set aside for her funeral, what the two of you should have done was to pay up front for a funeral plan. Giving the money to you is likely to be seen as deprivation assets so will still be treated as her money as far as financial assessment for care costs are concerned, as will the money your siblings have persuaded her to give them.


  • cannugec5
    cannugec5 Posts: 407
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    Have you actually ‘activated’ or registered the POA with her bank? 
    I have POA for an elderly friend with dementia. When I contacted his bank, and of course proved everything with the appropriate documentation, I was issued with the bank cards for his account and the existing cards which he held ( and frequently mislaid) became invalid. If he were to persuade somebody to take him to the bank he would no longer be able to transfer his money to anybody. 
    Having POA  is quite a daunting responsibility, and not one to be taken lightly. I am now responsible for all his bills (he still lives at home) in addition to our own and it takes some organisational skills to keep on top of it all. 

    As others have said, neither  you nor your siblings would be able to apply for POA . That is something your mother will have done. Did she name only you, or did she name you all ? Do you personally hold a certified copy of the POA documentation? 
  • ps2659
    ps2659 Posts: 529
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    cannugec5 said:
    Have you actually ‘activated’ or registered the POA with her bank? 
    I have POA for an elderly friend with dementia. When I contacted his bank, and of course proved everything with the appropriate documentation, I was issued with the bank cards for his account and the existing cards which he held ( and frequently mislaid) became invalid. If he were to persuade somebody to take him to the bank he would no longer be able to transfer his money to anybody. 
    Having POA  is quite a daunting responsibility, and not one to be taken lightly. I am now responsible for all his bills (he still lives at home) in addition to our own and it takes some organisational skills to keep on top of it all. 

    As others have said, neither  you nor your siblings would be able to apply for POA . That is something your mother will have done. Did she name only you, or did she name you all ? Do you personally hold a certified copy of the POA documentation? 

    Thanks for the replies I have altered some of the wording and tried to make it clearer
    My Mum has 4 children to which I am the eldest son she is in a care home now I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia I also lodged my registered LPOA finance with mums bank to which I am a joint account holder, once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied jointly for both LPOAs.

    I told them mum had given me £5000.00 in 2017 prior to me obtaining my LPOA to make sure she was buried next to dad when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they think I have the money for my own use I have the money locked in my safe.

    1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ?

    2. Her three other children some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them to there own bank accounts (not convinced she knew what was happening) this was in February 2020 a few weeks after they obtained POA mum was diagnosed with dementia in June 2019

    3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with.

    4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 children and not for mums needs is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.

    I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.



  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,493
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    ps2659 said:

    Thanks for the replies I have altered some of the wording and tried to make it clearer
    My Mum has 4 children to which I am the eldest son she is in a care home now I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia I also lodged my registered LPOA finance with mums bank to which I am a joint account holder, once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied jointly for both LPOAs.

    I told them mum had given me £5000.00 in 2017 prior to me obtaining my LPOA to make sure she was buried next to dad when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they think I have the money for my own use I have the money locked in my safe.

    1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ?

    2. Her three other children some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them to there own bank accounts (not convinced she knew what was happening) this was in February 2020 a few weeks after they obtained POA mum was diagnosed with dementia in June 2019

    3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with.

    4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 children and not for mums needs is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.

    I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.



    You've still not clarified who has LPoA for your Mum.
    Savvy_Sue said:
    If your mum appointed you as her attorney, how did your siblings become attorneys? As far as I know, that could only be done if your mother made a new LPA naming them - so are you still her attorney or not? Either acting alone, or with your siblings? If your mum has made a new LPA, someone would have acted as Certificate Provider to confirm she knew what she was doing. 


    If you answer the above questions, things may become clearer to posters.
    At the moment nobody reading your posts know who has LPoA for your Mum.


  • Flugelhorn
    Flugelhorn Posts: 5,427
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    I told them mum had given me £5000.00 in 2017 prior to me obtaining my LPOA to make sure she was buried next to dad when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they think I have the money for my own use I have the money locked in my safe.

    1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ? 


    The funeral is always paid out of the estate according to the individuals wishes, why have you got this in cash in your safe? Would be better to leave it in the joint back account and then when the time comes you can pay the undertaker by bank transfer or card or whatever. No wonder siblings think it is odd 

    2. Her three other children some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them to there own bank accounts (not convinced she knew what was happening) this was in February 2020 a few weeks after they obtained POA mum was diagnosed with dementia in June 2019

    Siblings can't get POA if mum does not have capacity - also there can only be one POA for finance etc  and one for health etc. 

    3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with.

    Financial attorney can use POA at any stage, if the donor has capacity then they must check with the donor that what the attorney is doing is OK - many people have this set up to ensure that bills are paid and bank transfers done, they may have capacity but dislike the logistics of doing this. Yes all expenditure has to be in the best interests of the donor


    4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 children and not for mums needs is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.

    What did they say when you spoke to them about it?


  • naedanger
    naedanger Posts: 3,102
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    edited 24 April 2021 at 1:10PM
    Answers:

    1. Yes this is OK because your mother had full mental capacity. Had she not had mental capacity it still sounds OK because you are her attorney and you are keeping the money for her funeral. However it is not ideal. It should not have been necessary to remove the money from her bank. Only people she trusts should have power to access her account. In which case the money would have been better left in her account and those looking after her affairs under her POA should take full account of her wishes regarding her funeral money and arrangements.

    2. Were her other three children also her attorneys when she withdrew the three lots of £3000? (If, as you say, she did not have mental capacity then the money should only have been withdrawn by her attorneys and for her benefit.)

    3. Yes to both questions.

    4. Were or are the children her attorneys? If so then contact the Office of the Public Guardian at the link given earlier in this thread.  If they aren't her attorneys it probably is a police matter. The problem is the children will probably say she did have mental capacity and the police may not be able to prove otherwise.

    All that said I agree with the suggestion you contact the Office of Public Guardian, assuming you are based in England. See earlier comment in this thread. You should check whether the three other children really do have POA for your mother and if they do then report your concerns to the OPG




  • ps2659
    ps2659 Posts: 529
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    Pollycat said:
    ps2659 said:

    Thanks for the replies I have altered some of the wording and tried to make it clearer
    My Mum has 4 children to which I am the eldest son she is in a care home now I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia I also lodged my registered LPOA finance with mums bank to which I am a joint account holder, once my two brothers and sister found out they all applied jointly for both LPOAs.

    I told them mum had given me £5000.00 in 2017 prior to me obtaining my LPOA to make sure she was buried next to dad when her time came, since then the three of them have not been happy about this and they think I have the money for my own use I have the money locked in my safe.

    1. When Mum asked me to hold the money for her funeral she was in full capacity I am also a joint account holder on mums accounts is this OK ?

    2. Her three other children some time later have taken her to the bank when she was not in not in full capacity and mum authorised the transfer from her account £3000.00 to each to them to there own bank accounts (not convinced she knew what was happening) this was in February 2020 a few weeks after they obtained POA mum was diagnosed with dementia in June 2019

    3. I believed an attorney for finances can act while the donor still has capacity and with the donors consent, and any monies taken from the account has to be used for the donor and not for themselves to do as they wish with.

    4. If money is taken from mums account for the benefit of the 3 children and not for mums needs is this a criminal offence and should I inform the police or deal with this through solicitors or just make them aware they have done wrong.

    I would be pleased to hear any legal or positive comments.



    You've still not clarified who has LPoA for your Mum.
    Savvy_Sue said:
    If your mum appointed you as her attorney, how did your siblings become attorneys? As far as I know, that could only be done if your mother made a new LPA naming them - so are you still her attorney or not? Either acting alone, or with your siblings? If your mum has made a new LPA, someone would have acted as Certificate Provider to confirm she knew what she was doing. 


    If you answer the above questions, things may become clearer to posters.
    At the moment nobody reading your posts know who has LPoA for your Mum.


    Mum appointed me as her attorney and then my 2 brothers and sister applied some time later and as I am aware they have joint LPoA so all four of us have it although  I am still registered as mums attorney  
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