Power of Attorney question.

Sea_Shell

I guess if more than one PoA did get granted, and the donor was with two separate banks and person A presented their PoA to Bank A, and person B presented theirs to Bank B then neither would be aware of each other, and so the banks would just deal accordingly?

naedanger

Sea_Shell said:

But surely the bank should know that at any one time they can only have ONE financial PoA registered with them.

If someone rocks up with another one, surely the bank isn't able to just add this to their records.   Some people have enough trouble registering one, never the less two or three!!!

Maybe the law on this isn't as clear as was initially thought?

Do the documents, once granted, get given a code or reference number?

The bank should only know that at any one time they can only have ONE financial POA registered with them if that is what the law says.

But I don't think that is what the law says (at least in Scotland). So if someone turns up with another POA I would expect the bank person to call their POA team. Then someone in their POA team will either know the actual legal position or check with someone in their legal department.

Then their legal department will say what the actual legal position actually is. Which I think is, "both are valid and should be complied with (even though unusual)". Or if you are correct they will says something else like "only POA x is valid the other isn't because the law says [whatever it says happens if somehow two are registered by mistake]".

In Scotland PoA's are given a certificate number and a case reference number.

By the way I am not saying having two POA is advisable. I am sure for most people it is not. But I think the law will be permissive. It allows you to do things that often aren't advisable because for some people in some circumstances it might meet their requirements. 

mrschaucer

This STEP discussion forum clearly states (post 7) that concurrent LPAs are legally ok, although the poster advises it might be "preferable" to revoke the first.  (2019)
I'm still amazed that this is possible, but naedanger seems to be spot on in saying that the law is permissive!
Edit:  It would obviously help to add the link.  Brainstorm.  Sorry!
https://trustsdiscussionforum.co.uk/t/multiple-lpa-epas/2133/7

Flugelhorn

it is very interesting - just thinking what I would do if someone turned up with the second H&W LPOA and wanted them noted on the health records. Suspect it would come to holding a meeting with the donor to see what they actually wanted and if necessary involve all the attorneys to be sure that they were aware and agreed. Don't want to be arguing about who does what when the things is really needed. Having said that 95/100 times I have asked attorneys for their views on what health care should be provided, it used to be "whatever you think is right doctor" 

ps2659

Finally got through to OPG after being 27th and 21st in the queue yesterday straight through this morning,
I asked how a second POA was allowed when mine was already in place, answer a donor can have as many attorneys as they want providing they have capacity.
The other questions asked in regards to legal precedence when the second LPA, complete with brand new Attorneys, is presented at the bank or with the GP or when attorneys are unable to agree, then a third party would become involved she said.
I did not ask anymore as I feel this is ripe for abuse like someone said earlier and this whole thing needs tightening up. thanks to all for your input this really does seem like a minefield I have found this time consuming and interesting, I am convinced many donors will not be aware of the issues, my concern is if OPG does not inform all people donors and attorneys holding LPoA  when a new one is registered this really is a car crash waiting to happen, I am sure many elderly people would be easy targets for abuse.       

Pollycat

ps2659 said:

Finally got through to OPG after being 27th and 21st in the queue yesterday straight through this morning,
I asked how a second POA was allowed when mine was already in place, answer a donor can have as many attorneys as they want providing they have capacity.

I'm not convinced that the bit in bold answers the question asked.

I agree that a person can have as many attorneys as they want. That's clear from LPoA guidance.

ps2659 said:

Finally got through to OPG after being 27th and 21st in the queue yesterday straight through this morning,

The other questions asked in regards to legal precedence when the second LPA, complete with brand new Attorneys, is presented at the bank or with the GP or when attorneys are unable to agree, then a third party would become involved she said.

Third party from where?

The Bank? The GP?

What advice/guidance exists for that 3rd party to determine which LPoA should take precedence?

Personally, I would not be happy with the answers provided.

I would be looking to take this further for total clarity on the position.

Flugelhorn

Yes I love that "a third party would become involved" - the problem with healthcare is that the conflict may not become apparent until there is a need for a decision and the donor lacks capacity to discuss. Ultimately there is the "best interests meeting " where doctors will make decision after discussion with those involved in care and family etc (as would be done in the absence of a POA) - presumably all attorneys could be consulted providing of course that they are happy to all be in the same room.

elsien

Flugelhorn said:

Yes I love that "a third party would become involved" - the problem with healthcare is that the conflict may not become apparent until there is a need for a decision and the donor lacks capacity to discuss. Ultimately there is the "best interests meeting " where doctors will make decision after discussion with those involved in care and family etc (as would be done in the absence of a POA) - presumably all attorneys could be consulted providing of course that they are happy to all be in the same room.

I have known best interests meeting to have have separate consultations with family members who can’t be in the same room together. It does add an extra layer of complication. 

OP, did you get as far as queuing her capacity to make the second LPA? That is still an option if you are genuinely concerned. 

sheramber

As far as I know both Power of Attorneys are valid if the original was not revoked in writing.
if the attorneys do not agree ( which could happen in the case of joint attorneys on one POA) then the third party would be the courts.

naedanger

ps2659 said:

Finally got through to OPG after being 27th and 21st in the queue yesterday straight through this morning,
I asked how a second POA was allowed when mine was already in place, answer a donor can have as many attorneys as they want providing they have capacity.
The other questions asked in regards to legal precedence when the second LPA, complete with brand new Attorneys, is presented at the bank or with the GP or when attorneys are unable to agree, then a third party would become involved she said.
I did not ask anymore as I feel this is ripe for abuse like someone said earlier and this whole thing needs tightening up. thanks to all for your input this really does seem like a minefield I have found this time consuming and interesting, I am convinced many donors will not be aware of the issues, my concern is if OPG does not inform all people donors and attorneys holding LPoA  when a new one is registered this really is a car crash waiting to happen, I am sure many elderly people would be easy targets for abuse.       

I know this has been said already but, if you have concerns that your siblings are abusing their POA powers you can (should) report your concerns to the Office of Public Guardian.
https://www.gov.uk/report-concern-about-attorney-deputy-guardian
https://publicguardian.blog.gov.uk/2019/06/18/how-we-do-investigations-at-opg/