Power of Attorney question.

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  • pphillips
    pphillips Posts: 1,631 Forumite
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    edited 25 April 2021 at 3:46PM
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
  • Flugelhorn
    Flugelhorn Posts: 5,553 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,661 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.

    As I posted up-thread:
    Pollycat said:


    You cannot have 2 different POAs for the same person with different named attorneys.
    Unless you are talking about Health & Welfare and Property & Financial Affairs and you are attorney for one and your siblings are attorneys for the other.


    Having re-read the original post:
    ps2659 said:

    My Mum is in a care home I took out LPOA health and finance some time ago before she was diagnosed with early dementia

    it appears the OP has lasting power of attorney for both.

    And as has been stated several times, the OP's siblings simply cannot take out another LPoA whilst the ones the OP's holds are still valid.
     

  • pphillips
    pphillips Posts: 1,631 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
    See page 3 of the LP12 guide:

    "You can appoint different attorneys for your 
    personal finances and your business affairs. 
    To do this, fill in two LP1F forms."
  • elsien
    elsien Posts: 32,684 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
    See page 3 of the LP12 guide:

    "You can appoint different attorneys for your 
    personal finances and your business affairs. 
    To do this, fill in two LP1F forms."
    This is true - a relative has two separate ones for his own personal finances and his business.
    This doesn't appear to apply to the OP though, as Pollycat has already pointed out. 
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
  • Flugelhorn
    Flugelhorn Posts: 5,553 Forumite
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    Interesting - missed that! probably because I only ever deal with people needing POA for personal use. Suspect the OPs mum doesn't need a separate one for business?
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,661 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
    See page 3 of the LP12 guide:

    "You can appoint different attorneys for your 
    personal finances and your business affairs. 
    To do this, fill in two LP1F forms."

    But the OP says he/she has LPoA for both i.e. Health & Welfare and Property & Financial Affairs (best to use the proper titles).
    So once the OP has that, the other siblings simply cannot just do another application.

    Here is what GOV.UK calls them:

    There are 2 types of LPA:

    • health and welfare
    • property and financial affairs

    But until the OP clarifies the situation, this is going round in circles.

  • pphillips
    pphillips Posts: 1,631 Forumite
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    edited 25 April 2021 at 11:29PM
    Pollycat said:
    pphillips said:
    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
    See page 3 of the LP12 guide:

    "You can appoint different attorneys for your 
    personal finances and your business affairs. 
    To do this, fill in two LP1F forms."

    But the OP says he/she has LPoA for both i.e. Health & Welfare and Property & Financial Affairs (best to use the proper titles).
    So once the OP has that, the other siblings simply cannot just do another application.

    Here is what GOV.UK calls them:

    There are 2 types of LPA:

    • health and welfare
    • property and financial affairs

    But until the OP clarifies the situation, this is going round in circles.

    But the OPG won't stop the registration of more than one type of LPA if the donor still has mental capacity to make a new LPA. So it's wrong to say that you can't have more than one of each type.

    The responsibility lies solely with donor to decide whether or not to revoke any of their registered Powers of Attorney, while they still have mental capacity to do so.

    A donor can't revoke a registered LPA like a will, by destroying it because the attorneys can then ask the OPG for an office copy. Also a donor can't revoke it by adding a revocation clause to a new LPA, what is actually required is a separately witnessed deed of revocation using a particular form of words.

  • naedanger
    naedanger Posts: 3,102 Forumite
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    pphillips said:
    Pollycat said:
    pphillips said:
    pphillips said:
    elsien said:
    They can’t just apply for a second one. Mum would have to revoke the existing one with you on it and complete a new one. 
    I don't believe that's actually correct,the OPG won't reject an application just because the donor has an existing LPA in place. There are some instances where a second LPA is legally required, for example where a donor wants one set of attorneys to manage their personal assets but a different set of attorneys to manage their business assets.
    there are two types of LPOA - one for health and welfare and one for property and finance - if they wanted different people to manage person and business assets they would be listed as doing such on the same property and finance LPOA 
    See page 3 of the LP12 guide:

    "You can appoint different attorneys for your 
    personal finances and your business affairs. 
    To do this, fill in two LP1F forms."

    But the OP says he/she has LPoA for both i.e. Health & Welfare and Property & Financial Affairs (best to use the proper titles).
    So once the OP has that, the other siblings simply cannot just do another application.

    Here is what GOV.UK calls them:

    There are 2 types of LPA:

    • health and welfare
    • property and financial affairs

    But until the OP clarifies the situation, this is going round in circles.

    But the OPG won't stop the registration of more than one type of LPA if the donor still has mental capacity to make a new LPA. So it's wrong to say that you can't have more than one of each type.

    The responsibility lies solely with donor to decide whether or not to revoke any of their registered Powers of Attorney, while they still have mental capacity to do so.

    A donor can't revoke a registered LPA like a will, by destroying it because the attorneys can then ask the OPG for an office copy. Also a donor can't revoke it by adding a revocation clause to a new LPA, what is actually required is a separately witnessed deed of revocation using a particular form of words.

    That was my understanding of the position, at least in Scotland.

    My mother (or more accurately her solicitor) wrote a replacement POA and revocation for the previous one. The new POA was granted and then she was later told there was a problem with the revocation (the solicitor made a mistake with the reference number of the POA to be revoked). This was duely fixed. So my understanding was there was a period during which she had two POAs in force.
  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 34,661 Forumite
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    edited 26 April 2021 at 7:43AM

    pphillips said:
    But the OPG won't stop the registration of more than one type of LPA if the donor still has mental capacity to make a new LPA. So it's wrong to say that you can't have more than one of each type.

    The responsibility lies solely with donor to decide whether or not to revoke any of their registered Powers of Attorney, while they still have mental capacity to do so.

    A donor can't revoke a registered LPA like a will, by destroying it because the attorneys can then ask the OPG for an office copy. Also a donor can't revoke it by adding a revocation clause to a new LPA, what is actually required is a separately witnessed deed of revocation using a particular form of words.


    You are talking about a new LPoA.

    The OPG will not allow more than one LPoA for each category with different attorneys at any one time..
    There cannot be more than one valid health & welfare LPoA.
    There cannot be more than one valid property & financial affairs LPoA.

    If the donor still has capacity and wishes to change LPoA:

    Change your lasting power of attorney

    You can ask the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) to change your lasting power of attorney (LPA) if it’s been registered and you still have mental capacity to make decisions.

    A new LPoA can't be set up whilst one is already in place - which is what the OP says has happened.

    If the OP's Mother - whilst still having mental capacity - wished to have her other 3 children added as attorneys to the LPoA, she would have needed to end the original LPoA and done a new one.
    This doesn't seem to have been what happened according to the OP.

    Pollycat said:


    But until the OP clarifies the situation, this is going round in circles.




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