I believe I have evidence of an estate agent creating fake bids

Jeepers_Creepers

Lonely_willow said:

Well the vendor was a landlord and the house I bought was rented out for many years with the estate agent. There is a good chance the vendor and agent had a working relationship and it could raise the likely hood of them working together to create the fake bids. Having the name matching from the estate agents point of view would not have mattered as I was never going to see the names anyway. It just so happens I reared my head 2 years later and pressured him into showing me the book and never raised my suspicions about the fake bidder.

Sadly I would put my suspicions of the names matching at 80%. I also do not view the ombudsman favourably they are hardly fully impartial as the estate agents pay for their upkeep.

As before, L-W, that first paragraph should be ignored - it is meaningless in terms of valid suspicion. The only thing that would stand out is if the names were the same, and you put that at around 80% certainty.

Again, this has to be your call. Either drop it and move on as best you can (ie try not to let it bother you) or you tackle it, and that would mean contacting the O'man. They will make the judgement of whether it's worth pursuing, and I'd have thought there was a fair chance since the investigation would hinge on one single fact which should be super-easy to verify; was the other bidder the vendor? Most cases are complex - this one isn't.

The whole issue does appear clouded by the likely fact that you overpaid for the property and have some regrets. That needs setting aside 100% - it is irrelevant - the choice to keep bidding was yours. If you had a legitimate competitor, then you simply got carried away. If the competitor was also the vendor (in which case the EA would certainly have known this) then you still got carried away, but you were also duped and manipulated - there is a serious issue here.

Make you decision, L_W, but please then accept it.

Greymug

Lonely_willow said:

Doozergirl said:

Lonely_willow said:

Penguin_ said:

Lonely_willow said:

hazyjo said:

What is it you hope to achieve?

It's worth what someone is willing to pay. Whether they invented a fake bidder or if the vendor had simply rejected your offer, you decided the house was worth what you paid.

I want to find out if the estate agent will face consequences for potentially creating fake bids. As I have seen the bidding book and I roughly remember the name on the bids below me matching the name of the vendor I feel there is scope for investigation.

Lets picture someone from the property ombudsman walks into the estate agent and asks to see the bidding book. Lets assume the other bidder name matches the vendors name. What does the estate agent tell the financial ombudsman then?

Did they force you to up your bid? No

Did you up your bid because you wanted the house? Yes

I have a mental disorder which caused me to make the mistake. A few months after purchasing the house I got around to doing the sums and released I overpaid. Ok it seems an estate agent is ok to create fake bids. The same is true for ebay etc.

I don't know what to say to this.  Obviously no one wants someone who is vulnerable to be taken advantage of, but there are good reasons why estate agents need houses to sell for the right price, not overinflated prices.  It's also pretty hard to hoodwink someone into paying too much because of the sheer volume of current and historic property sale information available to people.  

Buyers should have checks and balances in place.   Whenever a mortgage is involved, a surveyor is going to come in and given an assessment of the condition of the property and their own independent valuation of the property as security for lending.   If a house is genuinely overpriced, that is the point at which the mortgage valuation comes back low and the whole sale stands to collapse.  Agents don't want that.  They want an easy ride.  Trying to conclude property deals is often akin herding cats. 

House sales are also slow in our part of the world.  You have a lot of time between offer and completion to change your mind.  It's always available to you.  

Agents, on the whole, want a sale. That means getting the vendor and purchaser to agree, ideally at a price that they are both happy with.  One in three property sales collapse.  They have to try and set them up to succeed.   1% commission of nothing is a very small number.  

What due diligence did you do or have done for you?  Mortgage valuation?  Independent survey?  

I was a cash buyer, I did not need a survey. There was less risk in the estate agents eyes the surveyor would value the properly correctly.

I did get a survey done but the surveyor overvalued the property. He just basically took what I bid on it and subtracted £7k. He did not even really take into account similar property sales on the same street. If he had of done the percentages he would have seen he overvalued the house. These other house sales were within less than 3 months of my purchase.

So, the estate agent plays dirty and creates fake bids to make you pay more.

The surveyor, who values houses for a living, is incompetent and does a lousy job also to screw you over.

Sounds like you're the only one who's right and everyone else is wrong!!!!

Jeepers_Creepers

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/media/documents/commercial/codes-of-practice/tpoe27-8_code_of_practice_for_residential_estate_agents_a5_-_effective_1_june_2019.pdf

9d. You must not discriminate, or threaten to discriminate, against a buyer because that person declines to accept that you will (directly or indirectly) provide related services to them. Discrimination includes but is not limited to the following: • Failing to tell the seller of an offer to buy the property. • Telling the seller of an offer less quickly than other offers you have received. • Misrepresenting the nature of the offer or that of rival offers."

9g You must be fair and not misleading when disclosing the amount of any offers made to other buyers.

9i By law you must not misrepresent or invent the existence, or any details, of any other offer made or the status of any other person who has made an offer.

I'm not familiar with legalese, but the above stands out as potentially relevant, and possibly there's more. The last point mentions 'By law...', so I think we can conclude it would be very serious indeed - if it's true.

Lonely_willow

So should I say to the Ombudsman that I saw the bidding book and I believe the vendor was the other bidder?

If I turn out to be wrong I am not breaking any laws? I have nothing to lose by doing this if I am not breaking any laws.

Also if the Ombudsman has to give prior warning to the estate agent about my concern how on earth is that fair?

Surely the fair thing is someone from the Ombudsman physically walks into the estate agent unannounced and asks there and then to sit down beside the estate agent at the computer monitor and only then do they reveal they want to see the bidding book of the specific property to prevent the agent manipulating data. If the name matches the vendor then the Ombudsman asks to see the ID held on file and then contacts the conveyancing solicitor to match the ID. Then I guess they hand over the file to the police if they both match.

lincroft1710

Lonely_willow said:

So should I say to the Ombudsman that I saw the bidding book and I believe the vendor was the other bidder?

If I turn out to the wrong I am not breaking any laws? I have nothing to lose by doing this if I am not breaking any laws.

Also if the Ombudsman has to give prior warning to the estate agent about my concern how on earth is that fair?

Surely the fair thing is someone from the Ombudsman physically walks into the estate agent unannounced and asks there and then to sit down beside the estate agent at the computer monitor and only then do they reveal they want to see the bidding book of the specific property to prevent the agent manipulating data. If the name matches the vendor then the Ombudsman asks to see the ID held on file and then contacts the conveyancing solicitor to match the ID. Then I guess they hand over the file to the police if they both match.

If this is a complaint about illegal or criminal activity, the Property Ombudsman will not deal with it

https://www.tpos.co.uk/consumers/advice-for-consumers/sales/sales-faq#illegal-criminal

Also the agent may not be a member of TPOS

Thrugelmir

Lonely_willow said:

Doozergirl said

Let me get this straight. 

The estate agent is a criminal. 

The surveyor you hired had no idea what they were doing and didn't do the job you paid them for, despite downvaluing the property... 

The vendor was in absolute cahoots with the criminal estate agent.  

There is such a thing as a 'bidding book' for imaginary bidders.  

Property investors only want houses to rent to long term individual tenants - in a street full of Air BnBs and student lets?  

But the person who can get a little too focussed on the wrong things bears no responsibility?  

I guess I had taken advice from some local people and they all listened to my story and said fake bids. Maybe I should have not listened to them so much.

Was this on social media by any chance? 

NameUnavailable

Lonely_willow said:

Surely the fair thing is someone from the Ombudsman physically walks into the estate agent unannounced and asks there and then to sit down beside the estate agent at the computer monitor and only then do they reveal they want to see the bidding book of the specific property to prevent the agent manipulating data. If the name matches the vendor then the Ombudsman asks to see the ID held on file and then contacts the conveyancing solicitor to match the ID. Then I guess they hand over the file to the police if they both match.

You need to ask a policeman to get a search warrant and raid the premises for you.

greatcrested

This is 9 pages stemming from your autism.

Accept that it is part of the condition, and as advised earlier by deanagone, learn from it and move on.

Lonely_willow

NameUnavailable said:

Lonely_willow said:

Surely the fair thing is someone from the Ombudsman physically walks into the estate agent unannounced and asks there and then to sit down beside the estate agent at the computer monitor and only then do they reveal they want to see the bidding book of the specific property to prevent the agent manipulating data. If the name matches the vendor then the Ombudsman asks to see the ID held on file and then contacts the conveyancing solicitor to match the ID. Then I guess they hand over the file to the police if they both match.

You need to ask a policeman to get a search warrant and raid the premises for you.

A policeman or trading standards. I assume a judge will not grant a warrant.

jimbog

you say 'bidding book' and 'won' - was this an auction? Don't you really mean 'offer' and 'accepted'? 
I have never heard of a 'bidding book'