What is "parked adjacent to a dropped footway"

Manxman_in_exile

justworriedabit said:

AdrianC said:

Jonathan_Powell said:

Those two photos don't look to me to add up. That is, I presume, the same window and grey wallbox in both pics? If so, I'm either not understanding the perspective AT ALL, or the car is not in the same position in the two pics.

Can you please confirm that this is my error, perhaps with a wider photo to show the full situation in one pic?

I have no reason to doubt the validity of the OP's pictures so whay are you asking please? What appears not to be right for you, please share.

I think AdrianC is saying that those two photos appear to suggest a very short BMW, or that the car has been moved, or that the two photos are not taken strictly perpendicular to the building line, and so distort the images somewhat.

FWIW I suspect it's a fourth option and that the images are foreshortened a bit and the building line is more distant than it looks.

Manxman_in_exile

justworriedabit said:

OP
I was staggred to read this as IMO you are praked 100% spot on. But wait, read below and IMO and from what i have seen, heard I've never seen anyone get a ticket for parking like you have but read below

Below item quoted from link.

How close can I park to a dropped KERB?

!The car is parked at least 1.5 metres (5 feet) clear of the dropped kerb and there are no parking restrictions applying in this part of the road. This is NOT OK, unless you have the permission of the property owner who uses this dropped kerb.)

Download Rules for parking by a driveway - The London ...

Havering Council are being disingenuous there!

Yes - if you park 1.5m away you are OK.

No - if you park across the dropped part of the kerb you are not ok

But what they don't say is that you are still ok if you park closer than 1.5m, so long as no part of your car is level with any of the dropped bit of the kerb

Or is somebody going to tell me I've had it wrong all these years?

Manxman_in_exile

You need to find the council photos on their website.  What do they show?

Aretnap

Jonathan_Powell said:

I'm going to call them tomorrow. Through just asking or a FOI request, should they tell me whether or not someone complained? And as they on punish so called unfriendly parking, is it only the occupants of the house I'm parking near can make a complaint? 

They're unlikely to tell you whether they had a complaint, and certainly won't tell you who made it if there was one. The Freedom of Information Act doesn't require them to give you fine details of specific cases, and certainly doesn't apply to personal information.

There's no actual requirement for them to have had a complaint to give you a ticket anyway. The law makes it illegal to park "adjacent to" a dropped kerb, and if you want to take advantage of an exception it's down to you to prove that the exception applies - which you could do by pointing out that you owned the property, or by providing a letter from the owner saying that you had his permission. No evidence of permission from the owner means it's a valid ticket. In theory there's nothing to stop the council ticketing every car on the street which is adjacent to a dropped kerb, and letting the drivers who's parked with a resident's permission appeal and provide evidence. The reason they don't do this is practical rather than legal - it would mean a lot of wasted time and effort for drivers, residents and the council themselves.

So your argument is that you were not "adjacent to" the dropped kerb. I have no idea where the figure of 1.5m that has been quoted comes from. The law itself says that "a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway... where the footway,.. has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway". I think that the natural reading is that adjacent to means adjacent to the dropped kerb itself; a broad reading might mean close enough to it to obstruct access to the driveway, but there's no mention of a specific figure like 1.5m. The Highway Code also simply says don't stop or park in front of an entrance to a property - it doesn't specify a distance either side of that entrance where you shouldn't stop or park either. So where does 1.5m come from? If it's just something that one particular council has adopted as its own policy then it has no particular legal force - ultimately it would be for an adjudicator to interpret what "adjacent to" means, not the council.

Jonathan_Powell

Manxman_in_exile said:

justworriedabit said:

OP
I was staggred to read this as IMO you are praked 100% spot on. But wait, read below and IMO and from what i have seen, heard I've never seen anyone get a ticket for parking like you have but read below

Below item quoted from link.

How close can I park to a dropped KERB?

!The car is parked at least 1.5 metres (5 feet) clear of the dropped kerb and there are no parking restrictions applying in this part of the road. This is NOT OK, unless you have the permission of the property owner who uses this dropped kerb.)

Download Rules for parking by a driveway - The London ...

Havering Council are being disingenuous there!

Yes - if you park 1.5m away you are OK.

No - if you park across the dropped part of the kerb you are not ok

But what they don't say is that you are still ok if you park closer than 1.5m, so long as no part of your car is level with any of the dropped bit of the kerb

Or is somebody going to tell me I've had it wrong all these years?

Your bit in bold, that's what you're probably wrong about and everyone is surprised. I was even surprised to learn that you're not supposed to park your car facing traffic (as in the picture, parking the car on the right hand side of the road). Guess every now and again you come across these little known rules.

So i don't get another ticket I reversed the car 5 metres or so to a similar spot. 30 seconds later a van parks in the same place and I'm sure he won't get a ticket. 

Jonathan_Powell

Aretnap said:

Jonathan_Powell said:

I'm going to call them tomorrow. Through just asking or a FOI request, should they tell me whether or not someone complained? And as they on punish so called unfriendly parking, is it only the occupants of the house I'm parking near can make a complaint? 

They're unlikely to tell you whether they had a complaint, and certainly won't tell you who made it if there was one. The Freedom of Information Act doesn't require them to give you fine details of specific cases, and certainly doesn't apply to personal information.

There's no actual requirement for them to have had a complaint to give you a ticket anyway. The law makes it illegal to park "adjacent to" a dropped kerb, and if you want to take advantage of an exception it's down to you to prove that the exception applies - which you could do by pointing out that you owned the property, or by providing a letter from the owner saying that you had his permission. No evidence of permission from the owner means it's a valid ticket. In theory there's nothing to stop the council ticketing every car on the street which is adjacent to a dropped kerb, and letting the drivers who's parked with a resident's permission appeal and provide evidence. The reason they don't do this is practical rather than legal - it would mean a lot of wasted time and effort for drivers, residents and the council themselves.

So your argument is that you were not "adjacent to" the dropped kerb. I have no idea where the figure of 1.5m that has been quoted comes from. The law itself says that "a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway... where the footway,.. has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway". I think that the natural reading is that adjacent to means adjacent to the dropped kerb itself; a broad reading might mean close enough to it to obstruct access to the driveway, but there's no mention of a specific figure like 1.5m. The Highway Code also simply says don't stop or park in front of an entrance to a property - it doesn't specify a distance either side of that entrance where you shouldn't stop or park either. So where does 1.5m come from? If it's just something that one particular council has adopted as its own policy then it has no particular legal force - ultimately it would be for an adjudicator to interpret what "adjacent to" means, not the council.

Thanks. But doesn't a carriage way differ from a typical street? Also, would the highway code trump something the council has put together and seemingly know what they're talking about? 

justworriedabit

JP
FYI. The FOI act was to be used as i suggested to find out if they have given out tickets in your scenario. They may refuse and the FOI act sound good but lacks teeth. About if someone grassed you up, they won't tell you who it is but may say they had a report.
A word of caution. Should they tell you there was a complaint, please be advised that it may appear it was next door but could be someone that dislikes them or you and wants them or you to get into an argument or worse. So please be careful.

Manxman_in_exile

Jonathan_Powell said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

justworriedabit said:

OP
I was staggred to read this as IMO you are praked 100% spot on. But wait, read below and IMO and from what i have seen, heard I've never seen anyone get a ticket for parking like you have but read below

Below item quoted from link.

How close can I park to a dropped KERB?

!The car is parked at least 1.5 metres (5 feet) clear of the dropped kerb and there are no parking restrictions applying in this part of the road. This is NOT OK, unless you have the permission of the property owner who uses this dropped kerb.)

Download Rules for parking by a driveway - The London ...

Havering Council are being disingenuous there!

Yes - if you park 1.5m away you are OK.

No - if you park across the dropped part of the kerb you are not ok

But what they don't say is that you are still ok if you park closer than 1.5m, so long as no part of your car is level with any of the dropped bit of the kerb

Or is somebody going to tell me I've had it wrong all these years?

Your bit in bold, that's what you're probably wrong about and everyone is surprised. ...

Sorry - I'm confused?

I'm pretty certain the bit I've put in bold is correct, not wrong!  ie  "But what they don't say is that you are still ok if you park closer than 1.5m, so long as no part of your car is level with any of the dropped bit of the kerb"

It's Havering who are wrong in implying that you cannot park closer than 1.5m to a dropped kerb.  You can park as close as you like - even next to the sloping parts of the kerb - so long as you are not "adjacent" (or alongside or next) to the bit of the kerb dropped to road level.

Looking at your two photos you seem to be parked ok to me and I would challenge it.  (But first check the council's photos)

I'm a bit surprised (and concerned!) that not everyone here seems to agree with me.  To satisfy yourself whether I'm right, you should go to Pepipoo where they specialise in council parking tickets.  Don't regiser with a Hotmail address.  You'll need to post links to all pages of your PCN and to Council photos.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Manxman_in_exile

Just to add - I think one of the reasons a site like Pepipoo is so successful in helping motorists defeat council parking tickets is because most councils (as exemplified in the "advice" leaflet from Havering linked to above) don't understand and haven't got a clue about the parking laws they are trying to enforce.

Manxman_in_exile

Jonathan_Powell said:

I was even surprised to learn that you're not supposed to park your car facing traffic (as in the picture, parking the car on the right hand side of the road). Guess every now and again you come across these little known rules.

So i don't get another ticket I reversed the car 5 metres or so to a similar spot. ...

Jonathan_Powell said:

Thanks. But doesn't a carriage way differ from a typical street? Also, would the highway code trump something the council has put together and seemingly know what they're talking about? 

Jonathan - I am by no means at all an expert on the Highway code or on parking law but (and please forgive me) I'd have to say that you seem to know far less than even I do.  Sorry...

I think that if your car was parked as in the two photos you posted earlier, then I don't think you were committing any parking offence and there was no need to move your car and I don't think I'd be paying the charge if I were you, and I would be challenging it.

But as I've said above, I'm no parking law expert.  Before you do anything else I'd go to the experts and ask them.  Pepipoo in the link I posted earlier.  Don't rely on me or anybody else here - if what I'm telling you is wrong they will say so very quickly.