Electric meter faulty - energy supplier wants to fit smart meters

[Deleted User]

When I was on Agile before Covid, I was able to achieve average unit prices well below 9p/kWh without resorting to smart plugs etc. Unit prices were even lower over Summer 2020. It is really not that difficult to shift demand: the dishwasher; washing machine etc go on when energy is cheap. 

Italy; Spain; Canada, and a number of other countries have rolled out smart tariffs. These tariffs come in many forms: for example,  a mix of peak; mid peak and Offpeak prices broken down by weekday and weekend. These prices change as the seasons change. Clearly, the peak cost is breakfast; lunch and dinner when demand is high. For those who are not keen on this type of tariff, some energy suppliers are offering a usage tiered tariff. A customer would agree to a certain monthly usage limit in kWhs ( X per month in Winter and Y per month in summer). If this limit is exceeded then a much more expensive unit price is charged for all the units that exceed the contracted limit. This system is backed up with texts; notifications etc. Some countries do offer tariffs that limit the customer to a maximum draw on the Grid in kWs. If the customer does not respond to various load alerts, then the  supply will be disconnected via the smart meter. Note this is only done if there is a contract in place to do so with the customer.

This is an example of a ToU tariff in France called EDF Tempo. The fixed annual cost (roughly equivalent to our DSC) varies with the agreed power limit:

Quote: Tempo is also very economic if used properly. We chose this option in our previous house. The year is broken up into blue, white and red days. Power supply is between 9-36 kVA.

Blue days are the cheapest; there are 300 blue days in a year.

White days are the next highest tariff; there are 43 white days in a year.

Red days are the highest tariff, there are 22 red days in a year, and occur between 1st November and 31st March, but not on Saturdays, Sundays or fete days.

Each day is then broken up into 2 tariffs, so there are 6 different prices for a kWh.

To use Tempo, you need a small box supplied by the energy company which is plugged into a power socket. At 8pm each day, a colour will light up on the box, advising the colour code for the following day starting at midnight. The choice of day colour is made by the meteo and the electricity supply company.

If the colour code is red, then you know the following day is going to be a very cold day. Unquote

The whole point of doing all of this is to better match supply with demand. Smart usage profiling also gives the Grid managers a better view of when energy is actually used rather than Customer A uses 5000kWhs/year. Better management of the Grid reduces the need for costly ‘just in case’ generation and should, in the years ahead,  reduce future price increases - note, I didn’t say savings. 

Those who want to retain their old meters will increasingly be left on expensive legacy tariffs until such time as the Government makes smart meters mandatory. Sadly, by rolling out Gaz and Leccy the Government has made selling smart meters to consumers more difficult than it needed to be.

bristolleedsfan

Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/jan/26/ovo-to-launch-half-price-electric-vehicle-charging-tariff

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/ovo-unveils-pioneering-type-of-use-ev-charging-tariff

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

UnclaimedEnergy

Gerry1 said:

UnclaimedEnergy said:

I am very interested to hear actual reasons why people refuse a smart meter when the only difference to regular meters is that it can send readings automatically to suppliers.
Of course I don't actively look for the negative impacts of a smart meter so maybe I'm just missing some key information everyone else who refuses them knows?

Yes, you're missing a lot of key information.

The comms isn't one way, your smart meter does what it's told, and all sorts of nasties are in the specifications.  It's known as Demand Side Response, a euphemism for rationing because our creaky generating network won't be able to meet peak demand; we've already had several narrow squeaks in recent months.  Your smart meter functions include Time of Use tariffs (expensive when you want to use it), block tariffs (p/kWh rate goes up the more you use, effectively a Greta tax), Load Limiting and Load Shedding (it'll ration you and then cut you off if you don't obey).

It stores 13 months of data; your appliances' usage 'fingerprints' can be analysed to gains insights about you and to profile and monetise your lifestyle (see Onzo and Voltaware) and even shared with organisations including HMRC and the police.

And before any shills and trolls start mentioning tin foil hats (no, I'm not accusing you), it's all 100% factual info, not mere imagination.

DSR for domestic isn't currently being used to ration supply and is highly unlikely to do so. DSR is only currently being used domestically with battery owners via Social Energy: Link - So currently this is only a positive to having a smart meter so you could potentially be involved in trials like this (of course you need the battery as well.

Time of use tariffs aren't mandatory when you have a smart meter and you can just have a flat tariff as normal, so isn't really a negative impact.

Load Limiting and Load Shredding could be negative, however for the 99.9% of people this wouldn't even be a thing. It is likely just there incase a domestic customer is using industrial level power, meaning that they would need to incur additional charges through TNUoS, DUoS and Capacity Market etc. instead of being charged at the domestic level.

The only thing really that people could be against that I can agree with is the whole 'data mining' part. I would expect though that, unless you have any smart devices, it would only be able to tell when you're using more energy etc. therefore limiting how much information it can gain on you.

For me personally, 3rd parties seeing when I make my cup of teas isn't really an issue for me.

[Deleted User]

bristolleedsfan said:

Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/jan/26/ovo-to-launch-half-price-electric-vehicle-charging-tariff

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/ovo-unveils-pioneering-type-of-use-ev-charging-tariff

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

I have an EV and I have just run a quote. My Ovo unit rate would be 20.01p/kWh with a 24.43p DSC. I would need to drive many 000s of miles a year to make this EV tariff competitive. The tariffs offered by EDF; Octopus et al do not discriminate between EVs and other use. Octopus offers 5 hours at 5.5p/kWh with the rest at 14.3p/kWh. Clever marketing on  the part of Ovo but, as always, the devil is in the detail.

bristolleedsfan

Dolor said:

bristolleedsfan said:

Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/jan/26/ovo-to-launch-half-price-electric-vehicle-charging-tariff

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/ovo-unveils-pioneering-type-of-use-ev-charging-tariff

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

I have an EV and I have just run a quote. My Ovo unit rate would be 20.01p/kWh with a 24.43p DSC. I would need to drive many 000s of miles a year to make this EV tariff competitive. The tariffs offered by EDF; Octopus et al do not discriminate between EVs and other use. Octopus offers 5 hours at 5.5p/kWh with the rest at 14.3p/kWh. Clever marketing on  the part of Ovo but, as always, the devil is in the detail.

I did not say or indicate that OVO tariff would be cheaper merely said  "Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

Gerry1

UnclaimedEnergy said:

DSR for domestic isn't currently being used to ration supply and is highly unlikely to do so

Any actual evidence that it's unlikely?  If you're invited to put your head in a noose, it's unwise to assume that it will never be pulled tight !

UnclaimedEnergy said:

DSR is only currently being used domestically with battery owners via Social Energy: Link

Did Social Energy's plan from more than two years ago ever come to fruition or was it all just pie in the sky?

UnclaimedEnergy said:

Time of use tariffs aren't mandatory when you have a smart meter and you can just have a flat tariff as normal, so isn't really a negative impact.

Time of use tariffs aren't yet mandatory when you have a smart meter and at the moment you can just have a flat tariff as normal, so isn't yet really a negative impact.

FTFY !

UnclaimedEnergy said:

Load Limiting and Load Shredding could be negative, however for the 99.9% of people this wouldn't even be a thing. It is likely just there in case a domestic customer is using industrial level power, meaning that they would need to incur additional charges through TNUoS, DUoS and Capacity Market etc. instead of being charged at the domestic level.

Again, is there any real evidence to support this, or is it just wishful thinking?

UnclaimedEnergy said:

The only thing really that people could be against that I can agree with is the whole 'data mining' part. I would expect though that, unless you have any smart devices, it would only be able to tell when you're using more energy etc. therefore limiting how much information it can gain on you.

That's not what Onzo and Voltaware are saying.

[Deleted User]

bristolleedsfan said:

Dolor said:

bristolleedsfan said:

Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/jan/26/ovo-to-launch-half-price-electric-vehicle-charging-tariff

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/ovo-unveils-pioneering-type-of-use-ev-charging-tariff

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

I have an EV and I have just run a quote. My Ovo unit rate would be 20.01p/kWh with a 24.43p DSC. I would need to drive many 000s of miles a year to make this EV tariff competitive. The tariffs offered by EDF; Octopus et al do not discriminate between EVs and other use. Octopus offers 5 hours at 5.5p/kWh with the rest at 14.3p/kWh. Clever marketing on  the part of Ovo but, as always, the devil is in the detail.

I did not say or indicate that OVO tariff would be cheaper merely said  "Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

It isn’t a ToU tariff. Consumers pay the fixed tariff rate for all energy consumed whether it goes into the EV; a battery or the home and then Ovo applies a retrospective credit for all energy used to charge the EV equating to just an EV charging cost of 6p/kWh.

bristolleedsfan

Dolor said:

bristolleedsfan said:

Dolor said:

bristolleedsfan said:

Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/jan/26/ovo-to-launch-half-price-electric-vehicle-charging-tariff

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/ovo-unveils-pioneering-type-of-use-ev-charging-tariff

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

I have an EV and I have just run a quote. My Ovo unit rate would be 20.01p/kWh with a 24.43p DSC. I would need to drive many 000s of miles a year to make this EV tariff competitive. The tariffs offered by EDF; Octopus et al do not discriminate between EVs and other use. Octopus offers 5 hours at 5.5p/kWh with the rest at 14.3p/kWh. Clever marketing on  the part of Ovo but, as always, the devil is in the detail.

I did not say or indicate that OVO tariff would be cheaper merely said  "Interestingly OVO  "type of use tariff" goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"

"OVO Energy has launched a ‘type of use’ tariff for electric vehicle (EV) charging that offers a flat rate of 6p/kWh at any time of day"

It isn’t a ToU tariff. Consumers pay the fixed tariff rate for all energy consumed whether it goes into the EV; a battery or the home and then Ovo applies a retrospective credit for all energy used to charge the EV equating to just an EV charging cost of 6p/kWh.

I referred to it as being a "type of use tariff" being as OVO refer to it as a "type of use tariff"  and my original comment was not a reply to you/specifically to you, it was made to an "open forum"

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78070764/#Comment_78070764

The reference I made to "goes against a lot of what has been said about "time of use tariffs"  rather than quote loads of posts that have been written on the subject I will merely quote this from Agile guide

"People totally understand that price varies with supply and demand - whether it be peak and off peak pricing in transport and hotels, or seasonal pricing in supermarkets. It’s therefore bonkers that suppliers do not give consumers any reason to charge a car when there is ample cheap electricity on the system, or to do their washing when the sun is shining. We built Agile to help consumers take advantage of this and, in doing so, provide huge benefits to the energy system as a whole. Empowering citizens to shift their electricity use away from peak times will be critical to avoiding a £40bn bill for upgrading energy infrastructure. As we decarbonise, shifting consumption times will also enable more rapid uptake of electric vehicles and renewable generation"

People who work 8pm - 8am as an example and take EV with them might find it a useful option to be able to charge EV during the day and pay "6p/kWh at any time of day" for doing so.

UnclaimedEnergy

Gerry1 said:

UnclaimedEnergy said:

DSR for domestic isn't currently being used to ration supply and is highly unlikely to do so

Any actual evidence that it's unlikely?  If you're invited to put your head in a noose, it's unwise to assume that it will never be pulled tight !

UnclaimedEnergy said:

DSR is only currently being used domestically with battery owners via Social Energy: Link

Did Social Energy's plan from more than two years ago ever come to fruition or was it all just pie in the sky?

UnclaimedEnergy said:

Time of use tariffs aren't mandatory when you have a smart meter and you can just have a flat tariff as normal, so isn't really a negative impact.

Time of use tariffs aren't yet mandatory when you have a smart meter and at the moment you can just have a flat tariff as normal, so isn't yet really a negative impact.

FTFY !

UnclaimedEnergy said:

Load Limiting and Load Shredding could be negative, however for the 99.9% of people this wouldn't even be a thing. It is likely just there in case a domestic customer is using industrial level power, meaning that they would need to incur additional charges through TNUoS, DUoS and Capacity Market etc. instead of being charged at the domestic level.

Again, is there any real evidence to support this, or is it just wishful thinking?

UnclaimedEnergy said:

The only thing really that people could be against that I can agree with is the whole 'data mining' part. I would expect though that, unless you have any smart devices, it would only be able to tell when you're using more energy etc. therefore limiting how much information it can gain on you.

That's not what Onzo and Voltaware are saying.

It's unlikely that DSR will be used to stop people making a cup of tea as currently the main idea of it is to use it with people who have EVs and Electric heating (inc heat pumps) and changing when they use electricity. - Link
Of course if the government and energy suppliers went into full dictator mode to make sure there isn't nationwide blackouts then they might have to limit electricity supply, however isn't that better than a full on blackout?

Social Energy now have the 'first-ever' domestic Firm-Frequency-Response contract with National Grid in Sept 2020 optimizing customers batteries - Link

But as for now, time of use isn't mandatory and won't be until at least late 2020. Link  This doesn't confirm it will be mandatory, however if it isn't mandatory then I wouldn't be surprised if you need to pay a premium in the future to be on a flat tariff (My views, no evidence). However, one point is that more people on time of use tariffs can help reduce the need for DSR by already reducing how much energy people may use at peak times.

OK so I've read into load limiting and I can see this as a definite one for the future, however the purpose of this will be to help avoid local and national blackouts. If one of the reasons for not getting a smart meter is to avoid load limiting, not stopping to help blackouts in hospitals etc. then I can understand it, I just don't agree with it.

So Onzo are using smart meters to see homes energy habits, to then use to try and develop products to make use of that and probably make your life easier? - Link - again for me personally I don't mind this. I have an alexa, I have computers, I use the internet. I'm more than happy to pay a little bit more and have my data and habits used to help develop improvements in everyday life. I do understand though that people don't like to be snooped on and prefer privacy though so I can definitely see why people would avoid smart meters for this reason.

Of course a lot of the positives and negatives for smart meters are all future ifs and buts "It could help you with this... you could end up with this..." Looking into it more with the help of Gerry's counterpoints has helped me to see the other side of it though and at least understand more as to what peoples concerns are.

Telegraph_Sam

The whole topic is getting vastly more complicated than when I first posed the question.  I am beginning to think that pragmatically the conclusion is
- if you have significant use of EV, go for one of the innovative tariffs with all that that entails
if not
- go for the best value fixed rate tariff that the search engines come up with, filtered if appropriate to green tariffs. And, only if unavoidable, go for a smart meter.
Tweaking one's lifestyle to cut down on peak time consumption where possible not forgetting that it is not all about electricity, that gas comes  into it as well.