Electric meter faulty - energy supplier wants to fit smart meters

[Deleted User]

To put what I said into context, my Octopus statements are up to date as at 28 January. As I said before, one advantage of having a smart meter now is that you are building up a usage profile which can then be used to inform ToU tariff comparisons going forward. The present system of kWhs/year in a PCW is unlikely to give accurate results for ToU tariff comparisons. The comparison tool will need to know when energy is being used not just how much.

Telegraph_Sam

I got the impression that for Go Faster (rather than Agile) comparisons and predictions it was not necessary to go into the kind of detail that only a smart meter would come up with.

[Deleted User]

Telegraph_Sam said:

I got the impression that for Go Faster (rather than Agile) comparisons and predictions it was not necessary to go into the kind of detail that only a smart meter would come up with.

Perhaps not but you cannot opt for Go or Go Faster without a smart meter set for 30 minute usage recording. The only non smart electricity ToU tariff that Octopus offers is Tracker Electricity with daily changing prices.

Telegraph_Sam

Yes I was aware of that condition but had assumed (wrongly) it would apply even more so with Tracker. I'm guessing that all this applies to electricity only and that gas remains a separate topic "as is"?

Grumpy_chap

[Deleted User] said:

Octopus Tracker Electricity and Gas are daily priced per kWh. On Agile, the maximum price is capped at 35p/kWh. Prices during the day per kWh can vary from negative pricing (ie; they pay you) to the cap of 35p (usually over the period 5 to 7pm.  

https://octopus.energy/static/consumer/documents/agile-report.pdf

This idea of load-shifting does appeal to me.  I would be hampered by not having smart meter.  
To really make this kind of thing work, there needs to be functionality to shift loads without constant intervention, for example through Alexa or similar.  So, if the time if 4 - 7 that is peak rate 35 p/kWh and I forget so switch the washing machine on at half 6, Alexa intervenes and adds a start delay until 7.  That's where I'd want to be getting to with all of this.

Telegraph_Sam

Everyone's pers circs are different and for some having the washing machine come on at 3 am is easier than for others. And the principle of load shifting in order to do that doesn't really depend at all on a Smart Meter, or for that matter a ToU tariff (or Alexa!).  Just the Indesit program timer. More to the point:  If I was threatened with a 35p or £70 (!!);/kwh penalty during "normal use" (peak time) I would run a mile rather than sign up to something so punitive. Expressed differently, it would take a mighty big carrot to compensate me for such a big stick,.and one would hardly need a search engine to flag this up. [and I wouldn't want to have to bargain or argue with Alexa over when the washing machine starts its program if we judge the needs differently  ]

niktheguru

Telegraph_Sam said:

Everyone's pers circs are different and for some having the washing machine come on at 3 am is easier than for others. And the principle of load shifting in order to do that doesn't really depend at all on a Smart Meter, or for that matter a ToU tariff (or Alexa!).  Just the Indesit program timer. More to the point:  If I was threatened with a 35p or £70 (!!);/kwh penalty during "normal use" (peak time) I would run a mile rather than sign up to something so punitive. Expressed differently, it would take a mighty big carrot to compensate me for such a big stick,.and one would hardly need a search engine to flag this up. [and I wouldn't want to have to bargain or argue with Alexa over when the washing machine starts its program if we judge the needs differently  ]

I think this is being overcomplicated somewhat, and there is a sense of people wanting their little bit of cake and eating it. Everybody wants to save money, but sometimes a little effort is required on our part to do this. If you want the easy life, then usually you have to pay a little more.
Its not rocket science on tariffs like agile that the cost is higher on peak hours than it is at off peak. If you can avoid using electricity at peak times then you will undoubtedly save. So don't have an electric shower in those hours, avoid using over/washing machine etc, do them before or after or overnight. Usually not an inconvenience.....who NEEDS their washing at 8pm? If you avoid the heavy stuff, most peoples usage during that time will be pretty low. 
As the grumpy_chap suggested, there are ways in which you can automate a lot of these activities. I certainly have a smart dishwasher/washing machine which i can programme from an app or alexa if required. Most standard machines have timers which you can set. You can have your electric shower before bed or in the morning. You can charge your EV in the night rather than as soon as you get home, etc etc. People on agile have been able to reduce their overall cost to around 7-9p/kwh in the last year. Granted at the moment its more expensive so may not be worth it, but saying that so are overall prices increasing. and the beauty with octopus is you can move from octopus go and agile every 30 days.
Costs during peak hours are high and higher than your usual fixed/variable rate tariff, thats the whole point of it, to try and get you to shift your usage and manage the grid. If the prices were the same as the normal rate or only slightly more then people would just use electricity as normal and just get a discount at off peak.

You just need to look at the tables. Over the last year, off peak charges on agile have been very low, sometimes in the negative, so if used carefully you can save a lot of money.
This is currently a niche product and not for the masses. Yes, you need a smart meter, yes you need to take an active interest in it. If you don't want either, don't even bother wasting your time!

Grumpy_chap

OK, I do try to be "green" and would happily have connected appliances if that allowed me to be green by easy time-scheduling, whether Alexa, or any other app.  If it is all on the phone, that makes it easy.  Obviously, most things in the house are not connected in any case, but there are lots of things that would not matter if they did not happen in the peaks hours 4 til 7, but I'd not want to be having to focus on that - much preferred if it is supported.
Some examples:
 - Fridge freezer could tolerate upward temperature drift 4 til 7 then run the compressor afterwards
 - Laptop could ensure fully charge by 4 pm, so battery only until 7, then permit recharge again
 - Washing machine delay
etc etc.

Taking that further, the optimum would be a whole-home UPS battery system, ensure it has 5 kWh in at 4 pm and then set the house to only use power from the battery until 7 pm.  That way, load shift is achieved and there is no need for any change of behaviour or Alexa to get involved.

niktheguru

Grumpy_chap said:

OK, I do try to be "green" and would happily have connected appliances if that allowed me to be green by easy time-scheduling, whether Alexa, or any other app.  If it is all on the phone, that makes it easy.  Obviously, most things in the house are not connected in any case, but there are lots of things that would not matter if they did not happen in the peaks hours 4 til 7, but I'd not want to be having to focus on that - much preferred if it is supported.
Some examples:
 - Fridge freezer could tolerate upward temperature drift 4 til 7 then run the compressor afterwards
 - Laptop could ensure fully charge by 4 pm, so battery only until 7, then permit recharge again
 - Washing machine delay
etc etc.

Taking that further, the optimum would be a whole-home UPS battery system, ensure it has 5 kWh in at 4 pm and then set the house to only use power from the battery until 7 pm.  That way, load shift is achieved and there is no need for any change of behaviour or Alexa to get involved.

Indeed, and a lot of people have installed batteries/solar in order to do just that. For me those costs are just too high to justify at present, particularly if you're not in your "forever home" yet. Saying that, things like laptops/phones charging actually use so little energy that its prob not worth not charging them during peak hours on a monetary basis.
Smart/connected home is definitely the way forward. I've got heating/lights/washing machine/dishwasher/smart lights all connected up this way and it makes things so easy!

Telegraph_Sam

I think I can agree with parts of what you say more than with others.  The point is that I am fast coming to the conclusion that I don't need an Agile stick nor a smart meter to persuade me to move my consumption off peak as far as reasonable circs permit. I can do that with normal planning. But to be hit with 35 p /kwh and the like when I get it wrong or when I just want to "enjoy" having the kettle or microwave on in peak time is a price which I reckon is not worth paying (and is likely to far outweigh any off peak savings which are likely to be minimal if I am not an EV user).  The topic is certainly worth devoting some thought to,