Help regarding car I bought on finance, that’s modified.

williamgriffin

Mikej92 said:

williamgriffin said:

Mikej92 said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Unroadworthy,illegal,and insurance voided.

Have a read of section 75 of the Road Traffic Act.

So me signing that waiver, is technically not worth the paper it’s written on? And cannot be enforced?

as I said above, I wasn’t to know that my car would have had the DPF removed, along with an ecu tune.

so I signed it not thinking anything of it, possibly a bit dim witted on my behalf, though.

That's not what I'm saying. Not having a dpf doesn't make it unroadworthy.

DiddyDavies

williamgriffin said:

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

It could well do for a couple of reasons.
Under the RTA, a vehicle is unroadworthy if its condition makes it a danger to anyone and as a vehicle with the DPF removed may be emitting far more harmful particles than it should, this may do it.

If not, the other reason a vehicle may be classed as unroadworthy is

For the purposes of subsection (1) above a motor vehicle or trailer is in an unroadworthy condition if

would be unlawful by virtue of any provision made as respects the construction, weight or equipment of vehicles by regulations under section 41

and part of S41 of the act refers to:

(b)the emission or consumption of smoke, fumes or vapour and the emission of sparks, ashes and grit,

Mikej92

Undervalued said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Perhaps more relevant, does an MOT require the inspector to physically check for the presence of a DPF? I rather doubt it. They don't, for example, check that there is an oil filter present inside the housing! Would it pass an emission test with the DPF missing? If it would (might) then the MOT tester six months ago and indeed the dealer may have done nothing wrong.

Basically, according to a friend who was an MOT tester until he retired a couple of years ago, they are not allowed to remove bits in order to get a better look at MOT items. He has on occasions found things on my car that he felt needed attention despite it having just passed an MOT.

Well, Ford have apparently found it pretty easily , and seen that it’s been tampered with/removed.

Undervalued

Mikej92 said:

Undervalued said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Perhaps more relevant, does an MOT require the inspector to physically check for the presence of a DPF? I rather doubt it. They don't, for example, check that there is an oil filter present inside the housing! Would it pass an emission test with the DPF missing? If it would (might) then the MOT tester six months ago and indeed the dealer may have done nothing wrong.

Basically, according to a friend who was an MOT tester until he retired a couple of years ago, they are not allowed to remove bits in order to get a better look at MOT items. He has on occasions found things on my car that he felt needed attention despite it having just passed an MOT.

Well, Ford have apparently found it pretty easily , and seen that it’s been tampered with/removed.

Maybe but that is not my point.

A MOT only checks certain specific things. Many other things may be wrong with a car, possibly even making it very dangerous, but are not required to be checked on a MOT or cannot be check fully without some dismantling which is not allowed. 

unholyangel

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Yep. Not every fault/issue makes a car unroadworthy but this would as it's part of the exhaust system and the car is unable to meet its emission classification. 


What's more, if the trader sold it with a new MOT (not clear from info given so far) then they must have known it wasn't there and it's a dodgy MOT or they were the ones who removed it after it passed the MOT. 

MattMattMattUK

MOTs are a bit of an oddity, your car will fail if you seat belt is a bit frayed, but it will pass if the front of the vehicle is fitted with chainsaws, provided they do not obscure the lights, it will fail if the exhaust fails emissions testing, but that testing only tests for specific compounds, diesel particulates are not ones that are tested for, the machine is looking for the gasses. 

The inspection for the DPF is visual, they look at the point in the exhaust where the DPF is and if there is a hole cut and re-welded through the exhaust then they will normally fail it on the basis that it has been cut out, but some do not always bother, some (usually at garages where they have remove the DPF) will turn a blind eye and if someone is clever they can remove the DPF without leaving a obvious re-welded hole. The reason that the car's ECU in the OP's case has been reprogrammed is that the car will normally recognise that the DPF is missing and shut the car down, or put it into limp home mode. 

To any dealer or mechanic worth their salt it is fairly obvious when a DPF has been removed, unfortunately many people still continue doing it. 

Undervalued

unholyangel said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Yep. Not every fault/issue makes a car unroadworthy but this would as it's part of the exhaust system and the car is unable to meet its emission classification. 


What's more, if the trader sold it with a new MOT (not clear from info given so far) then they must have known it wasn't there and it's a dodgy MOT or they were the ones who removed it after it passed the MOT. 

If you are saying, for certain, that it would not pass an emission test with the DPF removed then clearly the MOT is dodgy or the DPF was removed after the test. Is that the case?

Mikej92

unholyangel said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Yep. Not every fault/issue makes a car unroadworthy but this would as it's part of the exhaust system and the car is unable to meet its emission classification. 


What's more, if the trader sold it with a new MOT (not clear from info given so far) then they must have known it wasn't there and it's a dodgy MOT or they were the ones who removed it after it passed the MOT. 

Yes, it was a fresh MOT, 6 hours before I picked the car up.

MattMattMattUK

Mikej92 said:

it will ‘ruin my car’ if I put a DPF back in.. making it roadworthy and legal to insure...

It will not ruin the car, however the car will require the ECU returned to factory configuration to run again. Depending on the car the DPF will cost £1,000-2,000, however the car requires one to be road legal.

Their "disclaimer" is not worth anything legally, a disclaimer or waiver can not be used to allow them to sell something illegally, I suspect however that you are going to have a fight on their hands as they are obviously unscrupulous and are operating on that basis. 

Aylesbury_Duck

Mikej92 said:

So I’ve tried contacting the dealership and he’s replied with this.

it will ‘ruin my car’ if I put a DPF back in.. making it roadworthy and legal to insure...

A dealership sent that?

Where exactly did you buy the car from?