Help regarding car I bought on finance, that’s modified.

Mikej92

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Then report the MOT station concerned.  And speak to your finance company to get their view on the situation.  It's possible they'll intervene when the discover they're financing a car with a dodgy MOT certificate. 

Thankyou.

maybe I should be so honest with my insurance company next time.. it’s the fact I can now no longer get back and forth work without means of public transport, as my car is off the road having lack of insurance. 

unholyangel

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Aylesbury_Duck

Mikej92 said:

Spank said:

I don't understand your problem. He told you that it might be missing had you sign a form that clearly states that they cannot guarantee that it has a DPF yet your shocked that it's missing? 

I would have insisted that they check or walk away and not sign that form 

No, he didn’t tell me that my DPF might be missing..
He absolutely did.  Well, he told you he couldn't guarantee it was there, which is the same thing.

he told me that a previous customer made a complaint regarding it, that’s why they do a waiver..

based on that, I would assume that he was making a cover story to the fact that it was actually my car.  I doubt it.  The story was either genuine or they have a scam going where they routinely remove DPFs from vehicles.  I doubt he created a backstory and a waiver document just for the purpose of selling you that car.

it was inspected by the mot station that done the mot, 6 hours prior to me picking the car up.. surely they would of seen that it had no DPF, and it would not of passed its MOT?

And that's why you may consider reporting the MOT station concerned.

Mikej92

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Mikej92 said:

Spank said:

I don't understand your problem. He told you that it might be missing had you sign a form that clearly states that they cannot guarantee that it has a DPF yet your shocked that it's missing? 

I would have insisted that they check or walk away and not sign that form 

No, he didn’t tell me that my DPF might be missing..
He absolutely did.  Well, he told you he couldn't guarantee it was there, which is the same thing.

he told me that a previous customer made a complaint regarding it, that’s why they do a waiver..

based on that, I would assume that he was making a cover story to the fact that it was actually my car.  I doubt it.  The story was either genuine or they have a scam going where they routinely remove DPFs from vehicles.  I doubt he created a backstory and a waiver document just for the purpose of selling you that car.

it was inspected by the mot station that done the mot, 6 hours prior to me picking the car up.. surely they would of seen that it had no DPF, and it would not of passed its MOT?

And that's why you may consider reporting the MOT station concerned.

Thanks, ill definitely get onto my finance company.

williamgriffin

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Mikej92

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Unroadworthy,illegal,and insurance voided.

williamgriffin

Mikej92 said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Unroadworthy,illegal,and insurance voided.

Have a read of section 75 of the Road Traffic Act.

Mikej92

williamgriffin said:

Mikej92 said:

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Unroadworthy,illegal,and insurance voided.

Have a read of section 75 of the Road Traffic Act.

So me signing that waiver, is technically not worth the paper it’s written on? And cannot be enforced?

as I said above, I wasn’t to know that my car would have had the DPF removed, along with an ecu tune.

so I signed it not thinking anything of it, possibly a bit dim witted on my behalf, though.

AdrianC

Mikej92 said:

upon looking into it, they have found that the car indeed does not have a DPF, so going off his story, I am that ‘recent’ customer.

Or he's bought two separate cars at auction that turned out to have had the DPFs removed and mapped out...

It's not uncommon. It's less common than it used to be, because the MOT changed in 2018 to include a missing or "obviously" tampered DPF as a failure reason. IF the tester knows there should be one present or can see that it's been tampered with... The usual way to do it now is to remove the DPF, cut into the top, then refit the hollowed-out shell so there's no external sign.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/8-nuisance#section-8-2-2-1

8.2.2.1. Exhaust emission control equipment

You only need to check components that are visible and identifiable, such as diesel oxidation catalysts, diesel particulate filters, exhaust gas recirculation valves and selective catalytic reduction valves.

If a diesel particulate filter has clearly been cut open and rewelded, you should reject it unless the vehicle presenter can show evidence that there was a valid reason to cut it open, such as for filter cleaning.

(a) Emission control equipment fitted by the manufacturer missing, obviously modified or obviously defective	- Major

Was this 4yo diesel low-mileage, by any chance?

Undervalued

williamgriffin said:

unholyangel said:

Waiver isn't enforceable. Not having a dpf means the car is unroadworthy and as a dealer, it's illegal to sell a car that's unroadworthy unless you can prove you made them aware that driving the car on UK roads would be illegal. 

Aside from that, nor can you have a waiver that allows the goods to not conform. The only exception would be specifically drawing their attention to a "fault". Which their waiver doesn't do. It doesn't say the dpf is missing, it just says they haven't checked it. 

It is an offence under the Road vehicles (construction and use) regulations (Regulation 61a(3)) to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car 

Found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance-note/diesel-particulate-filters

Does removing the dpf make it unroadworthy?

Perhaps more relevant, does an MOT require the inspector to physically check for the presence of a DPF? I rather doubt it. They don't, for example, check that there is an oil filter present inside the housing! Would it pass an emission test with the DPF missing? If it would (might) then the MOT tester six months ago and indeed the dealer may have done nothing wrong.

Basically, according to a friend who was an MOT tester until he retired a couple of years ago, they are not allowed to remove bits in order to get a better look at MOT items. He has on occasions found things on my car that he felt needed attention despite it having just passed an MOT.