BITCOIN

underground99

darren232002 said:

deejaybee said:

Back to Crypto:

Musk is bigging up environmentally friendly currencies - Amongst the lowest KwH per coin are XRP (  0.007 ) Doge ( 0.12 ) and Cardano ( 0.54 ) - compared to Eth (  62.56 ) and BTC ( 707 ).

Mainly because nobody bloody uses those first 3 compared to the last 2, and the value per coin of the first 3 is miniscule compared to the last 2. 

Lol, deejaybee is saying dogecoin is 'environmentally friendly' because you can mine one for about an eighth of a KWh, while it costs you 700 KWh to make a bitcoin.

But a bitcoin changes hands on the exchanges for about $50k while a dogecoin is about $0.5.

If you wanted to mine enough dogecoin to buy a $50k car with cryptocurrency at today's market prices, you'd need to mine about 100,000 doge, rather than 1 bitcoin. If the energy estimates above are correct, you'd have used 12000 KWh to do that. Which doesn't sound more environmentally friendly than using 707 KWh to make a bitcoin? Quite the opposite.

I have no idea if the figures given are accurate but it can't be particularly environmentally friendly to mine meme coins. Though Doge is worth 20% more today than yesterday, after Elon tweeted /hinted that transaction efficiency could be improved ; this followed relatively soon after he tweeted that they wouldn't accept BTC to buy a Tesla until the miners were using more environmentally-friendly energy, which had caused a swift crash in BTC and crypto generally. 

Not an investment for 'widows and orphans'

HansOndabush

Elon no longer accepting bitcoin for Tesla's could be the death knell for bitcoin. Now no other company is going to want to be seen as not environmentally friendly either; it's a major reversal in the 'adoption of bitcoin' story.

IvanOpinion

HansOndabush said:

Elon no longer accepting bitcoin for Tesla's could be the death knell for bitcoin. Now no other company is going to want to be seen as not environmentally friendly either; it's a major reversal in the 'adoption of bitcoin' story.

I disagree, there are many individuals (and companies) who really do not care anything about the environment, their children or their grandchildren.

HansOndabush

There aren't many companies that don't care about bad publicity and not being seen to be green is bad publicity.

Local_Person

Elon admitted that while Bitcoin payments have been suspended, Tesla aren't actually selling their Bitcoin... Tells you a lot about which way they think the price is heading! Wouldn't be surprised if they bought the dip they created.

Man it makes me angry when big institutions/whales screw with the market. Terrify the poor retail investors trying to earn a few quid with what small savings they have into selling for a loss, buy their coins for a nice discount and then ride the bull market to $100k+. Pretty shameful IMO.

User232002

lardellion said:

I just think that a "store of value" is something that does not change in price 10-20% overnight for no good reason. I would only trust gold to be a reliable hedge against inflation and debasement of fiat currency over the very long run, like a century. It can also be a good short-term play too of course (like crypto or anything).

And herein lies the mental gymnastics associated with the term 'store of value.'

Again, when people say they don't want price to change by 20% overnight they only ever mean negatively; nobody cares about the price going up by 20% in a day. But volatility is a measure of variance and you cant have 'positive' variance without the converse. If you want something that doesn't change in price, choose fiat; but you're guaranteed to lose purchasing power with that so it fits your definition (and most lay peoples definition of the term) but its not a store of value.

Value =/= Price. Elon's tweet affected the price of Bitcoin this week, but it did not measurably affect the value of it. Market movements are inherently psychological and, particularly in the crypto world, narrative and sentiment driven. Comparably, there was no real reason for Netflix & Facebook to lose ~20% in the pandemic sell off given that their business models rely on people being online; their underlying value increased in March 2020 even if their price went down. Gold lost 10% in the pandemic crash before rebounding, for no good reason.

The facts show that Gold has been a pretty awful store of value for the last decade, so now we've shifted to talking about century long timescales... What good is a store of value that only keeps value on 100 year timescales when the average human lifespan is ~80 years, and the average useful lifespan (after acquiring wealth) is half that if you're lucky? How can you trust gold 'to be a reliable hedge against inflation and debasement of fiat currency over [...] a century" when the average lifespan of fiat currencies is, historically, considerably less than 100 years?

lardellion said:

I don't think you have a good argument for why Bitcoin could not eventually be displaced by Ethereum. Or some other coin with a better proof of X in a decade. I think you would probably want to own an index of crypto tokens rather than one or two over the long run.

Err, what? I literally told you that I have more Ethereum than I do Bitcoin. I've written here, at length, that the TAM for smart contract platforms is considerably larger than Bitcoin; although Ethereum may secure anywhere between 0 and 100% of that market. If Ethereum 'replaced' Bitcoin, then I would be greatly enriched by it. 

But the reality is, Bitcoin and Ethereum do different things. They have different properties, use purposes and moats. People thinking that Ethereum, Doge or whatever other 'coin' they are shilling can 'replace' Bitcoin generally show how uneducated they are in the crypto space. I'm not a maximalist. There are plenty of very good projects in the top 100 and I hold multiple different digital assets. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, SnapChat and TikTok are all winners, even though they all operate in the same space.

lardellion said:

I have no faith in Dogecoin and am shorting it. However there is a tail risk that Elon moves to support Dogecoin in a way that changes the situation. We are already in bizarro world.

Shorting Doge seems like a bad move at this point.

Sure, there is a non zero chance; but Elon can't do much to help Doge. The economics of its issuance and current wallet structure is problematic and its not even running on its own blockchain. Once you start running through ways to solve this you unleash a pandora's box of problems. Lets just fork the blockchain and wipe certain wallets right? Well, ignoring practicalities, who in their right mind would invest in a project that has shown it would wipe the assets of large holders on a whim... One of Bitcoins key strengths is the stability of its protocol.

lardellion said:

And I think punters flooding in through these channels is an indication that we're getting close to a top. I have been going through all the referral deals on every crypto exchanges myself, there are a lot of them.

*Yawn*

Thinking you can predict the top based on subjective factors like this is fantasy.

lardellion said:

Point is that it's backwards that the crypto market is measured in trillions, but barely anyone is using crypto for ordinary purchases, like pizza.

Point is that its backwards that the gold market is measured in trillions, but barely anyone is using gold for ordinary purchases, like Pizza.

Bitcoin is not a currency. and therefore using 'payments' as a metric to measure its success is not appropriate.

prowla

HansOndabush said:

darren232002 said:

Malthusian said:

darren232002 said:

Malthusian said:

My critical thinking skills are enough to keep me out of money games and paying £30 for £5 worth of pizza bro.

Got any actual reasons why paying £30 for £5 worth of pizza and a £10 ticket to a zero sum money game is a good idea?

If you cant identify an obvious marketing play by a young company in a growing industry, then you're ngmi. 

So it's a good idea to pay £30 for £5 worth of pizza and a £10 ticket to a zero sum money game because it's an obvious marketing ploy. Roger 

HansOndabush said:

When Wall St. sneezes, bitcoin catches a cold.

Bitcoin down over 14% since Monday

Gold down 1.1% since Monday

Which one has been a better store of value?

Find the 'zoom out' button. You might want to use it...

Silly and cheap point scoring arguments like the above might work on cretins, but to anyone with a brain you just mark yourself out as someone who lacks the ability to reason well or has an axe to grind.

Take it you didn't sell then 
Btw, you can no longer buy that Tesla with Bitcoin either. 
Elon is the ultimate pump n dump merchant; I bet he and his buddies have been insider trading on the tweets!

Musk is dicking around a bit, isn't he?

Scottex99

HansOndabush said:

Elon no longer accepting bitcoin for Tesla's could be the death knell for bitcoin. Now no other company is going to want to be seen as not environmentally friendly either; it's a major reversal in the 'adoption of bitcoin' story.

Hahaha, how many times does need to be explained to you? BTC isn’t for payments. Generally companies say they accept it as a gimmick and 99% of people would never dream of spending their precious Bitcoin anyway. Yeah it would be cool to buy a Cybertruck for free (or with BTC that I bought at $4k) but it’ll cost me many times more in the long run.

So no, nobody cares about the Tesla news.

Kudos on the crusade though, lol

benbay001

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Elon no longer accepting bitcoin for Tesla's could be the death knell for bitcoin. Now no other company is going to want to be seen as not environmentally friendly either; it's a major reversal in the 'adoption of bitcoin' story.

Hahaha, how many times does need to be explained to you? BTC isn’t for payments. Generally companies say they accept it as a gimmick and 99% of people would never dream of spending their precious Bitcoin anyway. Yeah it would be cool to buy a Cybertruck for free (or with BTC that I bought at $4k) but it’ll cost me many times more in the long run.

So no, nobody cares about the Tesla news.

Kudos on the crusade though, lol

Exactly, its for getting rich quick!
Get with the times Hans. Grr.

(But more seriously, whats it for then?)

Scottex99

benbay001 said:

Scottex99 said:

HansOndabush said:

Elon no longer accepting bitcoin for Tesla's could be the death knell for bitcoin. Now no other company is going to want to be seen as not environmentally friendly either; it's a major reversal in the 'adoption of bitcoin' story.

Hahaha, how many times does need to be explained to you? BTC isn’t for payments. Generally companies say they accept it as a gimmick and 99% of people would never dream of spending their precious Bitcoin anyway. Yeah it would be cool to buy a Cybertruck for free (or with BTC that I bought at $4k) but it’ll cost me many times more in the long run.

So no, nobody cares about the Tesla news.

Kudos on the crusade though, lol

Exactly, its for getting rich quick!
Get with the times Hans. Grr.

(But more seriously, whats it for then?)

 Satoshi solved the double spend problem, and created it so you could move money/wealth in a decentralised way without needing authority from any 3rd party. That part works perfectly.

People then assume that it'll be used for payments which is can be but its kind of odd because it's so volatile. Yes there are widgets and things that track the price but if you sell a rolex for 1 BTC thats $48.8k right now but what about tomorrow, next year or 5 mins from now? I just got a new client who is a BTC fund. They are buying BTC from me with EUR. There's a gap from when the wire us the EUR and when it lands where the price could (in theory) do anything and I'm pitching them to perhaps buy USDT/USDC from us instead to hedge that risk. But they are cool with it. Plus there can be slow block confirmations etc if you were actually buying coffee with it via a QR code, although personally I dont see the point.

So to answer the question, store of value, speculative investment, hedge against inflation, take back control of your personal wealth, etc etc