BITCOIN

Zola.

Bear in mind the infinitely divisible in terms of units does not equal more bitcoin. You are just making smaller slices of a pizza...

Also to propose this extra decimal point divisibility there would have to be wide spread agreement to make such changes. I.e. miners and independent nodes running this new update. 

Its easy to say bitcoin has failed to be a store of wealth in the middle of a crash... lets see what happens when the market recovers to pre war/covid/inflation/supply crunch levels, or even just at the next halving shall we?

For those arguing bitcoin has no value, shouldn't it be zero right now in the middle of such a cluster**** of a world economy?  We are entering peak fear... surely it should be much lower? What happens when the world turns itself around?  Heres an interesting site of all the times people have said bitcoin is over: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/

We are also seeing high profit making tech companies with their stock prices cut in half, so to bash bitcoin alone is tribal and a bit ignorant, in my humble opinion

lozzy1965

My comments aren't really intended as BTC bashing, I was merely pointing out some of my opinions vs the post I was replying to,  but it certainly hasn't proven anything yet.  There are very wealthy people 'invested' in its success and I never underestimate the ability of speculators to prop up and even push through their speculations.  Ironically, precisely the kind of people BTC was set up to thwart are probably the kind of people helping it along at the moment!  Money for the masses outside of the unhealthy control of the whims of the wealthy? 
Notwithstanding that, the value of something is in its potential, and people still see potential there, which is why it isn't valued at zero.  Not even by me.

Malthusian

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

lozzy1965 said:

Your bank securely holds your wealth currently.  If you lose your login details you don't lose all your money.  The natural progression of the highlighted statement is that BTC will gradual disappear to nothing!

More like lumpily disappear to nothing. 900,000 Bitcoin disappeared when Satoshi Nakamoto forgot their keys, 230,000 odd disappeared when OneCoin inventor Ruja Ignatova was given a concrete overcoat.

Fiat currency gets lost as well, but not 1% of the entire money supply that will ever exist in one go.

But you are broadly correct. Mathematically it is a certainty that eventually all the Bitcoins will be lost (if the Sun burns for long enough). At that point the last bro standing to not forget their private keys will win the game, and be crowned Gilgamesh 2.0, owner of the entire world.

In all seriousness, lost coins are not logistically a problem. Only a problem for their owners. If the dwindling supply of Bitcoins started to make transactions impractical (the Triganic Pu problem), the holders could vote to subdivide them again.

Subdividing a currency is not printing money (not in the fiat currency sense). Minting a load of bronze asses and saying that 2 asses = 1 silver sesterce is not printing money. Minting new sesterces made of tin covered in silver foil and saying that 1 tin sesterce = 1 silver sesterce is printing money.

The point of printing money is to make governments richer at the expense of their creditors (by reducing the real value of their debt). If you subdivide the currency everyone has exactly as much as they had before.

Zola.

Malthusian said:

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

lozzy1965 said:

Your bank securely holds your wealth currently.  If you lose your login details you don't lose all your money.  The natural progression of the highlighted statement is that BTC will gradual disappear to nothing!

More like lumpily disappear to nothing. 900,000 Bitcoin disappeared when Satoshi Nakamoto forgot their keys, 230,000 odd disappeared when OneCoin inventor Ruja Ignatova was given a concrete overcoat.

Fiat currency gets lost as well, but not 1% of the entire money supply that will ever exist in one go.

But you are broadly correct. Mathematically it is a certainty that eventually all the Bitcoins will be lost (if the Sun burns for long enough). At that point the last bro standing to not forget their private keys will win the game, and be crowned Gilgamesh 2.0, owner of the entire world.

In all seriousness, lost coins are not logistically a problem. Only a problem for their owners. If the dwindling supply of Bitcoins started to make transactions impractical (the Triganic Pu problem), the holders could vote to subdivide them again.

Subdividing a currency is not printing money (not in the fiat currency sense). Minting a load of bronze asses and saying that 2 asses = 1 silver sesterce is not printing money. Minting new sesterces made of tin covered in silver foil and saying that 1 tin sesterce = 1 silver sesterce is printing money.

The point of printing money is to make governments richer at the expense of their creditors (by reducing the real value of their debt). If you subdivide the currency everyone has exactly as much as they had before.

It's an irrelevant question though - you could make that point against any stock like Tesla, doesn't really matter and is a straw man argument...  sure "late comers" maybe wont get as parabolic runs as the 2010 folks, but thats not to say that they wont make signifiant gains in the future. This thing is only 13 years old but has been decades in the making. 

Money is determined by collective agreement on value and its properties. Let's not forget that representatives from 40 developing countries all met in El Salvador yesterday to discuss Bitcoin.   if you don't think that counts for anything, your head needs a wobble.  

HCIMbtw

Malthusian said:

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

Name me 3 people who bought into any asset of your choosing in 2009 and sold in 2022

The easiest would be to try look for property sales I suppose, no idea how I would try find somebody invested in a particular share or index fund 

It's such an irrelevant question as to not even warrant a researched response 

The asset has grown by that much, money has come into it, whether people were there originally or not... I mean.. justify the value in your question

lozzy1965

Malthusian said:

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

lozzy1965 said:

Your bank securely holds your wealth currently.  If you lose your login details you don't lose all your money.  The natural progression of the highlighted statement is that BTC will gradual disappear to nothing!

More like lumpily disappear to nothing. 900,000 Bitcoin disappeared when Satoshi Nakamoto forgot their keys, 230,000 odd disappeared when OneCoin inventor Ruja Ignatova was given a concrete overcoat.

Fiat currency gets lost as well, but not 1% of the entire money supply that will ever exist in one go.

But you are broadly correct. Mathematically it is a certainty that eventually all the Bitcoins will be lost (if the Sun burns for long enough). At that point the last bro standing to not forget their private keys will win the game, and be crowned Gilgamesh 2.0, owner of the entire world.

In all seriousness, lost coins are not logistically a problem. Only a problem for their owners. If the dwindling supply of Bitcoins started to make transactions impractical (the Triganic Pu problem), the holders could vote to subdivide them again.

Subdividing a currency is not printing money (not in the fiat currency sense). Minting a load of bronze asses and saying that 2 asses = 1 silver sesterce is not printing money. Minting new sesterces made of tin covered in silver foil and saying that 1 tin sesterce = 1 silver sesterce is printing money.

The point of printing money is to make governments richer at the expense of their creditors (by reducing the real value of their debt). If you subdivide the currency everyone has exactly as much as they had before.

Lost fiat currency can of course get replaced, so does not have to be lost to 'the system', just to the individual.

I understand that having 100 Santoshis, which then get subdivided down to 1000 Nakamotos results in no change you ones wealth, but I suspect that it will result in psychological inflation because human nature will result on one thinking "I have 1000 of something now whereas I had 100 of something." 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflationarypsychology.asp#:~:text=our editorial policies-,What Is Inflationary Psychology?,is going to increase shortly.

Notwithstanding that, inflation is comprised of many complex factors and having a finite currency, but one which can be infinitely divided down will probably do nothing to prevent inflation, nor would having a finite currency that could not be divided down - but that would bring its own problems!

I agree totally on the point of printing money, I still have this nagging doubt that it is not much of a problem when every government in the whole world prints money that it essentially owes to itself.  It's conjuring money out of nothing I agree, but I'm not nearly clever enough to understand the ramifications of doing so, nor that if we had BTC we would be any better off living through what has happened in the last few years in the world.

Zola.

lozzy1965 said:

Malthusian said:

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

lozzy1965 said:

Your bank securely holds your wealth currently.  If you lose your login details you don't lose all your money.  The natural progression of the highlighted statement is that BTC will gradual disappear to nothing!

More like lumpily disappear to nothing. 900,000 Bitcoin disappeared when Satoshi Nakamoto forgot their keys, 230,000 odd disappeared when OneCoin inventor Ruja Ignatova was given a concrete overcoat.

Fiat currency gets lost as well, but not 1% of the entire money supply that will ever exist in one go.

But you are broadly correct. Mathematically it is a certainty that eventually all the Bitcoins will be lost (if the Sun burns for long enough). At that point the last bro standing to not forget their private keys will win the game, and be crowned Gilgamesh 2.0, owner of the entire world.

In all seriousness, lost coins are not logistically a problem. Only a problem for their owners. If the dwindling supply of Bitcoins started to make transactions impractical (the Triganic Pu problem), the holders could vote to subdivide them again.

Subdividing a currency is not printing money (not in the fiat currency sense). Minting a load of bronze asses and saying that 2 asses = 1 silver sesterce is not printing money. Minting new sesterces made of tin covered in silver foil and saying that 1 tin sesterce = 1 silver sesterce is printing money.

The point of printing money is to make governments richer at the expense of their creditors (by reducing the real value of their debt). If you subdivide the currency everyone has exactly as much as they had before.

Lost fiat currency can of course get replaced, so does not have to be lost to 'the system', just to the individual.

I understand that having 100 Santoshis, which then get subdivided down to 1000 Nakamotos results in no change you ones wealth, but I suspect that it will result in psychological inflation because human nature will result on one thinking "I have 1000 of something now whereas I had 100 of something." 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflationarypsychology.asp#:~:text=our editorial policies-,What Is Inflationary Psychology?,is going to increase shortly.

Notwithstanding that, inflation is comprised of many complex factors and having a finite currency, but one which can be infinitely divided down will probably do nothing to prevent inflation, nor would having a finite currency that could not be divided down - but that would bring its own problems!

I agree totally on the point of printing money, I still have this nagging doubt that it is not much of a problem when every government in the whole world prints money that it essentially owes to itself.  It's conjuring money out of nothing I agree, but I'm not nearly clever enough to understand the ramifications of doing so, nor that if we had BTC we would be any better off living through what has happened in the last few years in the world.

Rampant money printing = currency debasement and in turn rampant inflation. And the never ending hamster wheel.

The media are blaming all the distractions, but it does boil down to excessive money printing and currency debasement. 

Bitcoin naysayers say its going to zero.
The British pound and all fiat currencies are guaranteed to go to zero over time...

lozzy1965

Zola. said:

lozzy1965 said:

Malthusian said:

I should have guessed that even the question "how many people are left who mined / bought Bitcoin in 2009, haven't cashed out already, and have therefore actually experienced returns of 10,000%+" would be rejoined with "do your own research on Glassnode bro".

lozzy1965 said:

Your bank securely holds your wealth currently.  If you lose your login details you don't lose all your money.  The natural progression of the highlighted statement is that BTC will gradual disappear to nothing!

More like lumpily disappear to nothing. 900,000 Bitcoin disappeared when Satoshi Nakamoto forgot their keys, 230,000 odd disappeared when OneCoin inventor Ruja Ignatova was given a concrete overcoat.

Fiat currency gets lost as well, but not 1% of the entire money supply that will ever exist in one go.

But you are broadly correct. Mathematically it is a certainty that eventually all the Bitcoins will be lost (if the Sun burns for long enough). At that point the last bro standing to not forget their private keys will win the game, and be crowned Gilgamesh 2.0, owner of the entire world.

In all seriousness, lost coins are not logistically a problem. Only a problem for their owners. If the dwindling supply of Bitcoins started to make transactions impractical (the Triganic Pu problem), the holders could vote to subdivide them again.

Subdividing a currency is not printing money (not in the fiat currency sense). Minting a load of bronze asses and saying that 2 asses = 1 silver sesterce is not printing money. Minting new sesterces made of tin covered in silver foil and saying that 1 tin sesterce = 1 silver sesterce is printing money.

The point of printing money is to make governments richer at the expense of their creditors (by reducing the real value of their debt). If you subdivide the currency everyone has exactly as much as they had before.

Lost fiat currency can of course get replaced, so does not have to be lost to 'the system', just to the individual.

I understand that having 100 Santoshis, which then get subdivided down to 1000 Nakamotos results in no change you ones wealth, but I suspect that it will result in psychological inflation because human nature will result on one thinking "I have 1000 of something now whereas I had 100 of something." 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/inflationarypsychology.asp#:~:text=our editorial policies-,What Is Inflationary Psychology?,is going to increase shortly.

Notwithstanding that, inflation is comprised of many complex factors and having a finite currency, but one which can be infinitely divided down will probably do nothing to prevent inflation, nor would having a finite currency that could not be divided down - but that would bring its own problems!

I agree totally on the point of printing money, I still have this nagging doubt that it is not much of a problem when every government in the whole world prints money that it essentially owes to itself.  It's conjuring money out of nothing I agree, but I'm not nearly clever enough to understand the ramifications of doing so, nor that if we had BTC we would be any better off living through what has happened in the last few years in the world.

Rampant money printing = currency debasement and in turn rampant inflation. And the never ending hamster wheel.

The media are blaming all the distractions, but it does boil down to excessive money printing and currency debasement. 

Bitcoin naysayers say its going to zero.
The British pound and all fiat currencies are guaranteed to go to zero over time...

We have gone through multiple periods of 'rampant' inflation before.  It's just ridiculous to say this time, or any time, it is "never ending"!
It does NOT boil down to excessive money printing and currency debasement, that is part of it, but a war causing rampant food inflation has something to do with it, so does the necessity to ween ourselves off fuel from dictatorships, so does the fact that we are two years into a world wide pandemic - which, incidentally, is part of the reason for rampant money printing.

This Bitcoin watcher says that none of this would have been any different, and may well have been a lot worse, under Bitcoin.

If you mean fiat will go to zero over time because of inflation, and you think Bitcoin will get rid of inflation, then I remain to be convinced.

Zola.

Price rises were already extremely elevated before Putin invaded, then the US media blamed everything on the "Putin price hike".  It obviously plays a factor, but there is a lot of gaslighting and this is a huge problem, especially post covid. Assets are being propped up by the money printer, something has got to give...

The hamster wheel I am referring to is the never ending inflation in general.  Look at housing, completely out of control, houses, wages etc haven't risen in proportion,  many young people have no chance. 

Thrugelmir

The discussion of sub division reminds me of a great book that every new investor should read. 

How an Economy Grows and Why it Crashes - by Peter Schiff and Andrew Schiff.