My dad has been scammed out of £19,000

colsten

Yahoo_Mail said:

AWOL84 said:

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Dr_Crypto said:

So they somehow changed the account number and sort code for that payee? 

I’ve had a look at the NatWest App and the only changes that can be made is to the reference and the amount.
Just trying to think how they’ve done that. 

I have only assumed the account details were somehow changed otherwise how else would the money be wired? 

If people and NatWest themselves are saying it’s impossible to do this without using a card reader then they must have used a different method.

As I say the payee name was the same as a legitimate one used nearly a year ago. My dad has a text from NatWest saying that the payee has been amended.

A card reader was not used at all today. 

I’ll update you all as soon as the bank have been in touch. 

As mentioned before, you cannot send £19,000 from a Natwest current account to a new payee w/o the use of the card reader. You also cannot change an existing payee w/o using a card reader, and you cannot change the account number and sort code of an existing payee. Natwest do not send the account holder a text message when an existing payee is changed, and all that can be changed is the Reference.

If £19,000 have indeed been sent from your father's account, there are a number of possibilities:

1. he is in collusion with the recipient of the money and is telling his wife and you a pack of lies on what happened. E.g. the alleged text message could have been spoofed by the recipient
2. he has severe memory lapse and doesn't remember using the card reader at least once, may be several times
3. you are not reporting the events as he reported them to you

Of course Natwest have got a lot more information than any of us have (precise login times, transaction details, IP address(es) etc) but they know, as we do, that events cannot be as you reported them because their systems simply don't allow the transactions you have described.

You are wrong on all 3 counts.

I’ve seen the text from NatWest myself which said about the payee being amended. It was definitely from NatWest as he received a further text asking for a code when we was on the phone to NatWest after realising the fraud had taken place.

 I’m not going to go over it any further as you clearly think I’m lying or making it or that my dad is.

Ill update everyone as soon as I have it. 

You are right about the text, I just amended a payee and received a text.  You're not right about the card reader, they won't let you set up or amend a payee without using it.

That's strange, as I did not get a text when I modified an existing payee. What was the status on your payee (confirmed / not confirmed / no status shown)? I just changed mine again. No text (I do regularly get texts from Natwest for other purposes, e.g. 2FA when logging on)



What was the exact text you got? 

Lorian

Can the OP take a look at the payee now to see what got changed?

colsten

Lorian said:

Can the OP take a look at the payee now to see what got changed?

They don't show you what was in the Payment Reference field before the change.

Yahoo_Mail

colsten said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

AWOL84 said:

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Dr_Crypto said:

So they somehow changed the account number and sort code for that payee? 

I’ve had a look at the NatWest App and the only changes that can be made is to the reference and the amount.
Just trying to think how they’ve done that. 

I have only assumed the account details were somehow changed otherwise how else would the money be wired? 

If people and NatWest themselves are saying it’s impossible to do this without using a card reader then they must have used a different method.

As I say the payee name was the same as a legitimate one used nearly a year ago. My dad has a text from NatWest saying that the payee has been amended.

A card reader was not used at all today. 

I’ll update you all as soon as the bank have been in touch. 

As mentioned before, you cannot send £19,000 from a Natwest current account to a new payee w/o the use of the card reader. You also cannot change an existing payee w/o using a card reader, and you cannot change the account number and sort code of an existing payee. Natwest do not send the account holder a text message when an existing payee is changed, and all that can be changed is the Reference.

If £19,000 have indeed been sent from your father's account, there are a number of possibilities:

1. he is in collusion with the recipient of the money and is telling his wife and you a pack of lies on what happened. E.g. the alleged text message could have been spoofed by the recipient
2. he has severe memory lapse and doesn't remember using the card reader at least once, may be several times
3. you are not reporting the events as he reported them to you

Of course Natwest have got a lot more information than any of us have (precise login times, transaction details, IP address(es) etc) but they know, as we do, that events cannot be as you reported them because their systems simply don't allow the transactions you have described.

You are wrong on all 3 counts.

I’ve seen the text from NatWest myself which said about the payee being amended. It was definitely from NatWest as he received a further text asking for a code when we was on the phone to NatWest after realising the fraud had taken place.

 I’m not going to go over it any further as you clearly think I’m lying or making it or that my dad is.

Ill update everyone as soon as I have it. 

You are right about the text, I just amended a payee and received a text.  You're not right about the card reader, they won't let you set up or amend a payee without using it.

That's strange, as I did not get a text when I modified an existing payee. What was the status on your payee (confirmed / not confirmed / no status shown)? I just changed mine again. No text (I do regularly get texts from Natwest for other purposes, e.g. 2FA when logging on)

What was the exact text you got? 

The status shows as "-" it's an old payee.

AWOL84

Yorkshire_Pud said:

AWOL84 said:

Yorkshire_Pud said:

AWOL84 said:

Yorkshire_Pud said:

AWOL84 said:

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

Without using the card reader, you cannot make a payment of  £19,000 from a Natwest account to a new recipient. We have already dealt with the 'modified an existing recipient', which is also impossible w/o a card reader, and in any case, sort code and account number of an existing payee cannot be changed.

So you’re accusing either myself or my dad of lying?

What benefit would I have to lie about that? A card reader WAS NOT USED. 

An existing payee who my dad last paid back in November 2019 (legitimately) was the name used to transfer £19,000. My dad has a text on his phone saying that the payee had been amended.

That is a cast iron fact. 

The payee name doesn’t matter, only the sort code and account number so what had been amended the payee or the account details? Could it be the case that your dad made any changes himself?

Apart from that there are major discrepancies in your account of the fraud and the plausibility of it happening the way you say. Hence the many incredulous responses. Strange that NatWest operate differently for your dad or the fraudsters than the rest of their customers.

The name had not changed. In the transactions the money sent was to the same name so whatever changed was in the background and a card reader was NOT USED. 

How do you know a card reader was not used BY THE FRAUDSTER?! They wouldn’t have amended an existing payee account details, they could have borrowed an existing name, then they would have to set up a NEW PAYEE using a card reader which could use the old payee name or Tom or Harry doesn’t matter.

Of course I don’t know if they used a card reader. Makes card readers pointless if it’s that easy for scammers isn’t it?

My dad certainly didn’t use one.

Think you have confirmed then that the supposed scam as reported by you couldn’t have happened. Being defensive is fine and I’m sure NatWest will deal with you accordingly if you tell them the same guff you have told us.

IT DOESN'T ADD UP.

My dad didn’t use a card reader so who knows. I only hope NatWest get to the bottom of it. 

colsten

Natwest do routinely warn people from sending money to strangers, and from downloading software at the request of callers. every time you log in.

Dr_Crypto

I guess the scammer could either be the original payee or have also hijacked the payee’s account? 

You do get a text when amending a payee reference: 
“The payee details for [payee] have been updated on [date] as requested by you. If you didn't make this request, please contact us urgently.“

Lorian

Or they could be in possession of the father's card or potentially a skim of it.

Yorkshire_Pud

Dr_Crypto said:

I guess the scammer could either be the original payee or have also hijacked the payee’s account? 

You do get a text when amending a payee reference: 
“The payee details for [payee] have been updated on [date] as requested by you. If you didn't make this request, please contact us urgently.“

Isn’t the reference just a convenient aid memoir for the account holder? So it’s irrelevant to the recipients account details which are either a.deleted b.set up from scratch and doesn’t influence making payments.

Yahoo_Mail

Lorian said:

Or they could be in possession of the father's card or potentially a skim of it.

A skimmed card won't work in a card reader.