My dad has been scammed out of £19,000

colsten

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

Without using the card reader, you cannot make a payment of  £19,000 from a Natwest account to a new recipient. We have already dealt with the 'modified an existing recipient', which is also impossible w/o a card reader, and in any case, sort code and account number of an existing payee cannot be changed.

colsten

OK, I dug out my Natwest card and card reader and modified an existing payee. As mentioned before, only the Reference can be modified, not the sort code or the account number. I got an on-screen confirmation message that the payee has been changed. I did not get a text message confirming the change (and certainly not one with questionable wording)

AWOL84 said:

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

"on the 27/10" ??? Unlikely that any bank would refer to a date like this.

They would also not connect two sentences with a comma.

Your / your dad's story has more holes than an  Emmental cheese.

Mickey666

Yahoo_Mail said:

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Useful link, thanks.  Seem like my Nationwide account imposes the lowest limit, although they don't limit the number of transfers/day.

dggar

colsten said:

OK, I dug out my Natwest card and card reader and modified an existing payee. As mentioned before, only the Reference can be modified, not the sort code or the account number. I got an on-screen confirmation message that the payee has been changed. I did not get a text message confirming the change (and certainly not one with questionable wording)

AWOL84 said:

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

"on the 27/10" ??? Unlikely that any bank would refer to a date like this.

They would also not connect two sentences with a comma.

Your / your dad's story has more holes than an  Emmental cheese.

Half Term?

stclair

If you need to change the account number and sort code of a payee you will need to delete the existing payee and set them up again. To set the new one up you’d need a card reader.

bradders1983

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

OK, so ignoring the other plot holes that have been pointed out, how did they get set up in the first place?

AWOL84

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

Without using the card reader, you cannot make a payment of  £19,000 from a Natwest account to a new recipient. We have already dealt with the 'modified an existing recipient', which is also impossible w/o a card reader, and in any case, sort code and account number of an existing payee cannot be changed.

So you’re accusing either myself or my dad of lying?

What benefit would I have to lie about that? A card reader WAS NOT USED. 

An existing payee who my dad last paid back in November 2019 (legitimately) was the name used to transfer £19,000. My dad has a text on his phone saying that the payee had been amended.

That is a cast iron fact. 

Yorkshire_Pud

AWOL84 said:

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

Without using the card reader, you cannot make a payment of  £19,000 from a Natwest account to a new recipient. We have already dealt with the 'modified an existing recipient', which is also impossible w/o a card reader, and in any case, sort code and account number of an existing payee cannot be changed.

So you’re accusing either myself or my dad of lying?

What benefit would I have to lie about that? A card reader WAS NOT USED. 

An existing payee who my dad last paid back in November 2019 (legitimately) was the name used to transfer £19,000. My dad has a text on his phone saying that the payee had been amended.

That is a cast iron fact. 

The payee name doesn’t matter, only the sort code and account number so what had been amended the payee or the account details? Could it be the case that your dad made any changes himself?

Apart from that there are major discrepancies in your account of the fraud and the plausibility of it happening the way you say. Hence the many incredulous responses. Strange that NatWest operate differently for your dad or the fraudsters than the rest of their customers.

whitesmith

I want to amend the account number & sort code of a payment?

To change the account number and sort code for a payee you will need to delete the existing payee details and set up a new payee. It is currently not possible to amend the account number or sort code for an existing payee online.

To delete the payee online:

1. Log in to Online Banking at www.nwolb.com(opens in a new window)
2. Select 'Payments and transfers' from the main menu
3. From the 'Make a payment or transfer' section select 'Manage payees'
4. Select the appropriate payee from your list
5. Click on the 'Delete Payee' button and follow the instructions on screen

To add a new payee you will require a card-reader and a card you can use with that reader to complete the process.

AWOL84

Yorkshire_Pud said:

AWOL84 said:

colsten said:

AWOL84 said:

Yahoo_Mail said:

Mickey666 said:

MalMonroe said:

The fact that there was a note on the account not to allow the withdrawal will go a long way to helping you recoup your dad's money. They ignored their own instruction. 

I'm more concerned about why and how anyone was allowed to withdraw such a large sum, electronically, in just one transaction. 

Let's hope they do a full and thorough investigation after they've returned your Dad's money. 

If they don't return it, you have a very good case to take to the Financial Ombudsman here.

Agreed.  I’ve never been able to transfer more than £10k in one transaction, but perhaps different banks have different limits (I’m not with NatWest).  Also, Isn’t 2FA supposed to help stop this sort of thing (though not infallible)?  Perhaps NatWest doesn’t use that either?

Best of luck to the OPs Father though.

https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/about-us/personal-transaction Most seem to offer more than £10000.

Incidentally, I just logged into my RBS account (same system as Natwest) to see if my card reader was required to amend the sort code and account number of a payee and it won't let me change anything other than the reference, and even doing that required a card reader.  The only way to send money to a different sort code and account number combination is to set up a new payee and that also requires a card reader.

It can't have happened the way the OP claims it did, the OP's father definitely had to set up a new payee and use a card reader.  Probably won't make any difference with the complaint, but might best to find out exactly what happened before they speak to the bank again.

No card reader was used, dad doesn't even known how to use it.

Text message from Natwest says "The payee details for XXX have been updated on the 27/10 as requested, if you didn't make this request contact us immediately"

Without using the card reader, you cannot make a payment of  £19,000 from a Natwest account to a new recipient. We have already dealt with the 'modified an existing recipient', which is also impossible w/o a card reader, and in any case, sort code and account number of an existing payee cannot be changed.

So you’re accusing either myself or my dad of lying?

What benefit would I have to lie about that? A card reader WAS NOT USED. 

An existing payee who my dad last paid back in November 2019 (legitimately) was the name used to transfer £19,000. My dad has a text on his phone saying that the payee had been amended.

That is a cast iron fact. 

The payee name doesn’t matter, only the sort code and account number so what had been amended the payee or the account details? Could it be the case that your dad made any changes himself?

Apart from that there are major discrepancies in your account of the fraud and the plausibility of it happening the way you say. Hence the many incredulous responses. Strange that NatWest operate differently for your dad or the fraudsters than the rest of their customers.

The name had not changed. In the transactions the money sent was to the same name so whatever changed was in the background and a card reader was NOT USED.