UPDATE: Moving house - Europcar admin fee & awaiting NtH from Premier Parking Solutions HELP

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Coupon-mad said:

Well now it sounds like I should pay up as soon as any NtH arrives.

Eh?  How do people make this leap?

OF COURSE anyone can sue within 6 years. I could sue you, you could sue me.  This is not news.  Nothing has changed, your case is not different than any other here.

Paying this scam is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are being told. 

I guess it wasn't that obvious that I was joking here and being a little bit arch?
This forum really is an amazing thing and you posters do incredible work that should receive a lot of praise. But sometimes it does seem like you maybe lose sight of the fact that just because you know the rules and process forwards and backwards, for most it is a confusing morass of information into a seemingly arbitrary and Byzantine world.
Of course I'm not going to pay. It is outrageous what I have received from Europcar and the letter they forwarded from PPS.
This is a "scam" as you say. But Redx above you went to great lengths to outline this isn't to get people off parking fines. Slightly mixed messages.
I'm trying to get my head around it all as being told you suddenly owe £100 plus £40 admin fee for something completely unwarranted is a lot to take in during this time when money is uncertain.
In this case, pulling off a very very narrow one-way road winding through a tiny village packed full of tourists during a pandemic that you didn't mean to enter, not seeing any signs or notices, going to the toilet and then sitting in the car for ten minutes figuring out a route out and the next move. That to me doesn't seem to warrant extortion from some poxy bunch of fraudsters.
And I'm just trying to understand how all this works.
Thank you all for your responses and your patience. It is appreciated.

Coupon-mad

I guess it wasn't that obvious that I was joking here and being a little bit arch?
Of course I'm not going to pay.

Hooray, glad to hear it! 

Hard to tell intentions and nuances/humour from a forum post.  Where is the sarcasm emoji when you need it?!

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Redx said:

The point is that they must take the correct person to court , for the correct reason , prove their case to the court such that a judge is more certain than not with everything and everyone involved

If they can show it's likely that the keeper hirer was the driver and the driver breached the terms of the parking contract , the judgment is against the driver and the defendant owes the figure decided by the judge

Following the newbies thread is to clarify the options , not to get everyone off a parking charge !!

If the claimant fails the law and the rules , then complaining that the driver did ithe same is pan calling the kettle black

It may be harder to prove who was the Driver , but the driver may still be liable if proven , they usually are

POFA assists a driver where the claimant fails to comply with the law , it's not a law designed to protect people who flout parking contracts , even though it happens

Thank you Redx. But I do realise all this. I'm not trying to "get off a parking charge". I'm trying to figure out where I stand after receiving an out-of-the-blue letter from Europcar and then no communication from anyone again, two months after the event in question. In no world is it reasonable to be expected to pay £140 for no reason. It is considerably more than the hire charge for  the week. And the parking charge has no merit whatsoever.

Were_Doomed

Coupon-mad said:

I guess it wasn't that obvious that I was joking here and being a little bit arch?
Of course I'm not going to pay.

Hooray, glad to hear it! 

Hard to tell intentions and nuances/humour from a forum post.  Where is the sarcasm emoji when you need it?!

You mean this one? 🙄

Press the Windows key and dot ( . ) ... no, that's not a breast 😂 ... and you can choose from a wide selection on emoticons.  

Redx

It's not a mixed message , if the driver is liable and it can be proven.  Then own up

The different scenarios are for where there are technical issues

Beckham was guilty of speeding in a loaned Bentley , he got off on a technicality , costing him a lot of money but wasn't found guilty in court , but he was guilty of speeding by doing 43 in a 30:zone !

O j Simpson got off because a glove didn't fit !! Lol , but everyone believes he was guilty and a private lawsuit implied it too. Being guilty is not necessarily proven guilty

Most criminals say , prove it , before I accept the punishment , so no comment

We are not here to get perpetrators off a parking charge , but we have no sympathy for parking companies , debt collectors and lawyers or shysters that flout the laws and rules. If they play by the rules there is little we can assist with anyway !!

There is such a thing as guilty , but many guilty people get off on a technicality , like Beckham , Nick 'Mr loophole' Freeman knew he was guilty when he checked the N I P was received by Beckham a day late !!

This is a serious subject where humour has no part

Parking charge notices are easily obtained for numerous infringements of signs , markings , laws and rules , the parking companies exploit this to the max with 8.4 million private PCN.s issued annually , which goes up every year , like positive covid cases

Redx

You have two contracts in play here

The hirer signed contract where they are charging an admin fee for passing on hirer details to a private parking company , and

A private parking charge PCN for an alleged breach of a parking contract by a driver on private property by the hire vehicle

Each has its own set of laws and rules , even though both are contracts , so two separate complicated topics

The former had arbitration and appeal options by the bvrla a few years ago , plus the CRA 2015 too

The latter is complicated , but it should be expected that the companies should comply with POFA 2012 if they wish to make a hirer liable !! ,  they have had 8 years to get their heads around it , they snooze , they lose , so we have no sympathy for them

It appears that you have not yet received your postal parking invoice , so this topic has little substance , yet !!

Lawyers help guilty clients , it's fundamental in criminal cases , even Rolf had a defence lawyer , as did Philpott

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Coupon-mad said:

I guess it wasn't that obvious that I was joking here and being a little bit arch?
Of course I'm not going to pay.

Hooray, glad to hear it! 

Hard to tell intentions and nuances/humour from a forum post.  Where is the sarcasm emoji when you need it?!

Judging tone in this boards is very difficult. I definitely could have done with the sarcasm emoji.

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Redx said:

You have two contracts in play here

The hirer signed contract where they are charging an admin fee for passing on hirer details to a private parking company , and

A private parking charge PCN for an alleged breach of a parking contract by a driver on private property by the hire vehicle

Each has its own set of laws and rules , even though both are contracts , so two separate complicated topics

The former had arbitration and appeal options by the bvrla a few years ago , plus the CRA 2015 too

The latter is complicated , but it should be expected that the companies should comply with POFA 2012 if they wish to make a hirer liable !! ,  they have had 8 years to get their heads around it , they snooze , they lose , so we have no sympathy for them

It appears that you have not yet received your postal parking invoice , so this topic has little substance , yet !!

Lawyers help guilty clients , it's fundamental in criminal cases , even Rolf had a defence lawyer , as did Philpott

Thanks Redx. I do appreciate your input immensely. But I'm not sure debating the definitions of guilt gets us anywhere here. But I did enjoy your messages referencing such a brilliant array of cases from the Juice to Role Harris by way of David Beckham. And you said this is a serious subject. Surely a smile here and there makes it all more enjoyable.
And you are right, the topic has little substance at this point until I receive a NtH. And Europcar don't have my credit card details anymore so they are also not able to get hold of the £40 either.
I'm continuing my dispute with the hire company and will go down the BVRLA route. And will await word from PPS.
Also, I thought this forum was based on the premise that all parking charges from these rogue operators were spurious and without merit? They are bloodsuckers. If a notice was received from the police or council then that is one thing. Some cowboy outfit, that is another thing all together.
Let's see how it develops shall we.

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Dispute with Europcar continues and still so sign of communications from PPS.

They are completely unwillingly to budge. And they have now sent me the letter they sent to PPS (see below). In the original letter I received from Europcar dated 5 Oct 2020, which included the photocopied NtK PPS sent on 23 Sept 2020, they advised they had already passed on my details to PPS. This letter seems to say they didn't write to them until 27 Oct, which is more than 28 days after receiving the NtK. I'm also not happy with the assumption in the liability letter that the hirer was the driver.
Separately, Ive been sent a 'final demand' letter from Europcar (also below) threatening legal action, late payment charges and affected credit rating. I find this appalling, especially as I am in dispute with them still.

In an email reply this week they said:
"With regards to our fines administration fee, in the event that Europcar receives a notice or correspondence relating to a fine, penalty or toll, which has either been sent by an issuing authority or private car parking company; we are authorised to charge an administration fee per request that is received. The cost for the adminIstration fee is confirmed under our Tariff Guide which forms part of our terms and conditions and is charged to cover the resources in managing each request we receive."

It is like banging my head against a brick wall. This phony piece of paper from PPS is not a fine, penalty or toll.

I'm ready to start a BVRLA dispute now.

However, what is advised? At the moment Europcar do not have my payment details and have no way of making me pay. Would a BVRLA judgement against me put me in a difficult position? Am I best to just ignore them? It feels like extortion. They are demanding £40 and say they will refund on proof of a successful appeal. But I have nothing to appeal. It feels wrong.

Thanks again all.

Coupon-mad

I would take it to the BVRLA, personally.  Europcar also lied to you by saying that they had already passed on your details to PPS, but instead they sat on it for more weeks then finally wrote to PPS.  And as you say, this is not a 'penalty, fine or toll', all of which have specific statutory meanings and can never be collected by a private parking ex-clamper thug firm.

Also, companies can;t add 'late payment charges' to alleged debts if the person is a consumer.  The Late Payment Regs only relate to business-to-business cases.