UPDATE: Moving house - Europcar admin fee & awaiting NtH from Premier Parking Solutions HELP

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Update on Europcar. They have now backed down on the £40 admin fee.

I sent another polite but firm complaint informing them they had failed to transfer liability within 28 days, getting in touch with PPS too late. I also asked if they had contacted the landholder.

I expressed concern over a potential breach of data protection. I asked them to share with me, within 28 days, proof of a relationship between PPS and landholder and that they had obtained that proof before sending my data.

I also informed them they had no authority to threaten me with late payment charges or a bad credit rating.

Europcar responded (see below) that they had been mistaken and that they had in fact contacted PPS in time. But strangely they then said the admin fee charge was being withdrawn because of all the time it had taken to send PPS all the info.

Good result. However, I have still yet to received a NtH or any correspondence from PPS.

If I do so then I will follow the Newbies thread to the letter and also write a letter to the landholder and an MP.

But, should I direct PPS back to Europcar if I do receive anything? Seems like Europcar may have failed to properly transfer liability.

Should I follow up Europcar with any further action? Or pursue a potential breach of data protection. I find it very odd that Europcar have backed down after my latest strongly worded email threatening them with my own action. I could try a complaint to the European Consumer Centres Network to investigate whether Europcar has broken European contract law. Should I go after them in any way? I'd love to give them a kicking as they have acted like a bully. Or should I just forget about them now?

I've copied Europcar's latest email to me below and also attached three of the seven attachments, including an email from PPS to Europcar.

Thank you so much for all your wonderful help so far. You have helped me get Europcar off my back without need to start a BVRLA dispute. I really appreciate it.

LATEST EUROPCAR EMAIL:

I refer to my email below and can confirm I have further reviewed your comments with our Fines Department Manager.

Firstly, I would like to apologise for providing the incorrect date in my previous response as our Fines Department did contact the parking company prior to 27.10.2020. I have provided a correct timeline of events below;

·         30.09.2020 – Charge *********** received

·         05.10.2020 – Driver details passed on to the issuer and our administration fee invoice was generated.

·         09.10.2020 – We received an email from the Issuer requesting for additional details in order to accept the transfer of liability.

·         15.10.2020 – Rental agreement document and letter sent to the Issuer.

·         27.10.2020 – Another letter was sent to the issuer.

I have attached the documents to confirm the above timeline.

We appreciate you do not agree with our administration fee of £40.00 however, this is applicable in line with our Terms and Conditions which you signed to accept at the beginning of the hire. However, due to the time it had taken for all information to be submitted to the issuer, we have cancelled the administration fee. In light of this, you will receive no further correspondence from Europcar in relation to this and no further action will be taken.

In relation to the parking charge itself, the landowner has granted the private parking company full rights to monitor their land and therefore there is no requirement for Europcar to contact the landowner directly. Europcar are legally required to provide the private parking company with your details in the event a notice is received and as Europcar have correctly provided them with your details as the driver at the time of the violation, if you do wish to appeal, you would be required to do so directly with the parking company.  

If you do have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

THREE OF SEVEN ATTACHMENTS:

Redx

Europcar are mistaken or have lied above numerous times !!

They are not legally bound to name the driver at all , there is no law requiring it for private parking charges !!
POFA has a section where they can name the hirer (not Driver) if they wish to transfer liability , which they would

As keeper , they could have paid the PCN , or ignored it , not a good idea but there is no compulsory legal requirement to name you at all

They cannot name the driver , because they have no idea who was driving !! They were not present , so can only assume

They can name the hirer because their contract document reveals the hirer that signed it

In private parking , there is no penalty , so they lied there too , it's an invoice , a Parking Charge Notice , or PCN

It's down to PP to issue an NTH direct to you as far as this saga goes

Good for you that they backed down on the £40 administration fee, so well done ☺️👍

They really need to get a grip on POFA after 8 years of failure

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Redx said:

Europcar are mistaken or have lied above numerous times !!

They are not legally bound to name the driver at all , there is no law requiring it for private parking charges !!
POFA has a section where they can name the hirer (not Driver) if they wish to transfer liability , which they would

As keeper , they could have paid the PCN , or ignored it , not a good idea but there is no compulsory legal requirement to name you at all

They cannot name the driver , because they have no idea who was driving !! They were not present , so can only assume

They can name the hirer because their contract document reveals the hirer that signed it

In private parking , there is no penalty , so they lied there too , it's an invoice , a Parking Charge Notice , or PCN

It's down to PP to issue an NTH direct to you as far as this saga goes

Good for you that they backed down on the £40 administration fee, so well done ☺️👍

They really need to get a grip on POFA after 8 years of failure

It shows that persistence usually pays off. I have spent a considerable amount of time emailing them back and forth. However, their incompetence and/or lies tangled them up in the end. They relied on bullying tactics, such as strident ***FINAL DEMAND*** letters containing lies and legal threats. I guess it shows that these firms and the parking cowboys are relying on ignorance and fear to get paid. But I was - and am - prepared to fight them to the very end.

Would love some thoughts on next steps to take with Europcar as it is clear they have questions to answer. And also advice on whether they have failed to transfer liability as it is slightly hard to tell. Clearly something has happened to make them suddenly drop their demands for £40. They went from threatening late charges to backing away very quickly.

Fruitcake

You could send an SAR to PPS asking what personal information they hold about you, or you could continue to wait for a NTH.

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Fruitcake said:

You could send an SAR to PPS asking what personal information they hold about you, or you could simply wait for a NTH.

I'm not going to poke that particular hornets' nest just yet. Prefer just to wait and see what comes.

My question is really around whether Europcar have actually failed to transfer liability to hirer and how to establish that for sure. And if any NtH arrives then just to casually refer them to Europcar as being liable.

And the other thing is should I try to take further action with Europcar and report them to anybody for their behaviour? Should I send them another angry email with some demands on data protection or the lies they have spun etc? Or just forget about them entirely now. If they have messed up the transfer it seems worth knowing for any potential defence.

I'm just happy they have done a U-turn on chasing the admin fee. But don't want to let them off the hook if there is anything I can do. Happy to put more effort in if it discourages them from carrying on this behaviour with other customers.

Le_Kirk

Have you received a Notice to Hirer?  If not, they have not transferred liability (properly).

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Le_Kirk said:

Have you received a Notice to Hirer?  If not, they have not transferred liability (properly).

No. I have not received anything at all from PPS. All of my contact on this is with Europcar. They sent me an invoice from PPS, the NtK addressed to Europcar and Europcar's own £40 admin fee invoice on 5 Oct (received on 13 Oct). All of my correspondence so far (and all of this thread) has been arguing with Europcar car over varying matters to get the admin fee struck out. That has now happened, but still no word from PPS.

Fruitcake

As above, unless and until you get a NTH, PPS cannot transfer liability to the hirer. If they fail to comply with the requirements of Paras 13 and 14 of the PoFA, they still cannot transfer liability to the hirer, and won't (shouldn't) be able to transfer liability back to Europcar because the hire company have supplied the required documents. I do not believe the PoFA mentions a time limit for the hire company to provide said docs, only for the scammers to issue the docs to the hirer.

It's up to you what you want to do about Europcar. 

You could if you wish point out all their errors such as referring to the charges as a penalty and offence, and providing details of the hirer but alleging they were the driver. This is not within the knowledge of the sender, nor is the comment about the landowner passing full rights to the scammers, since I doubt Europcar know the identity of the landowner and certainly won't have seen the parking contract, and therefore these comments could constitute perjury if this went to court.

However, you do risk alienating them and them finding a reason to re-instate the charge.

OnTheRoadAgain2000

Fruitcake said:

As above, unless and until you get a NTH, PPS cannot transfer liability to the hirer. If they fail to comply with the requirements of Paras 13 and 14 of the PoFA, they still cannot transfer liability to the hirer, and won't (shouldn't) be able to transfer liability back to Europcar because the hire company have supplied the required documents. I do not believe the PoFA mentions a time limit for the hire company to provide said docs, only for the scammers to issue the docs to the hirer.

It's up to you what you want to do about Europcar. 

You could if you wish point out all their errors such as referring to the charges as a penalty and offence, and providing details of the hirer but alleging they were the driver. This is not within the knowledge of the sender, nor is the comment about the landowner passing full rights to the scammers, since I doubt Europcar know the identity of the landowner and certainly won't have seen the parking contract, and therefore these comments could constitute perjury if this went to court.

However, you do risk alienating them and them finding a reason to re-instate the charge.

Thanks Fruitcake. Every time I think I'm grasping some of this stuff I get confused again. Never mind.

I thought the hire company (Europcar in this case) had 28 days to transfer the liability to the hirer and if they didn't the liability remained with them as keeper and not the hirer? And then the parking scammers sent out the NtH and invoice etc to the hirer, thus kicking off the advice of what to do in the Newbies thread.

I can't quite figure out why Europcar have all of a sudden backed down, unless they have realised some big mistake and are trying to quietly back away.

I would really like to hammer Europcar, but as you say, I'm not quite sure of the right avenues or tactics and if there a risk of them changing their mind and requesting the admin fee again. This last part feels extremely unlikely given everything I now have from them in balck and white.

Redx

POFA defines the legal liabilities of Europcar , the correct path to follow , within timescales , if they wish to transfer keeper liability to a hirer

This is name the hirer plus their address and additionally provide copies of the hire docs to PPS

They failed almost all of this , fudging it completely.
Europcar should not have sent you the NTK ! Period !

If they fail POFA , then as keeper they remain liable under POFA , if the PPC complied with POFA

If the PPC failed POFA , many do , they can only pursue the Driver , if known 

I suspect that they have both failed POFA , so as hirer you have received nothing useful and the driver has not been identified

Europcar have probably mixed up a private PCN with a council or speeding ticket PCN , where its an authority and legal requirements may be required , this is not one

So their language is a mix of both and improper procedures and incorrectly assuming that a hirer is a driver

Until you get something tangible in the post , it's their mess not yours

If they cannot follow the correct procedures after over 8 years of POFA or bvrla guidelines from over 5 years ago , then they are improperly trained , not your problem

If an NTH arrives with hire docs , it will have probably failed POFA anyway but you then appeal it as hirer , as usual