Tenant Flat Fire - Next stage - how to sell?

paintpot

Hi, sorry I didn't mean to offend, I am a landlady too, but I still often refer to myself as a landlord, don't ask me why! It's not a sexist thing or anything Also, kunekune, I wasn't saying that cgw had done anything wrong, I was just referring to eldowado's posts and meant that no landlord or LANDLADY deserves their house to be torched - end of!

re the storage side cgw, you mentioned they had ornaments etc that they value, these won't cost much to store but I would still store the other stuff regardless, they could wrapped in plastic if smoke/water damaged and yes it might cost you. Unless you can get some independent verification that the items are damaged beyong repair and worthless or get the tenant to agree in writing that they no longer want them I GUESS you are going to have to store them. You could send your tenants photos of the items and ask if they want them... I am purely trying to give some practical advice but how you stand to the letter of the law I am guessing but as the tenant/family has been difficult from the outset I can only surmise that this will continue so would advise caution. can you get legal advice from your insurers on this matter. I would seriously want to rid myself of anything to do with them in your shoes but unfortunately the law doesn't allow this.... :rolleyes:

franklee

cgw wrote: »

When my tenant told me that THE COUNCIL told her that I had to get a court order to get her out, I didn't believe it.

I phoned the council housing dept and asked if they gave that sort of advice.

First they would not discuss it with me. Then they said that they commonly gave the advice that tenants should 'sit tight' until a landlord gave them a section 21 and then got a court order (accelerated possession).

I was shocked and told them so. Because it means that a tenant - in order to get council housing, will cause increasing problems until they are issueda section 21. Then refuse to go and make the LL get a court order!

I told the council that i thought it was ridiculous advice. It unfairly raises someone up the council housing list, it costs money for the court order(which has to come out of the tenant's deposit - and they may not be well off), it wastes everyone's time including the courts.

The council told me this was common practice for local authorities and virtually said I was stupid if I did not know or objected about this. I asked to speak to someone else but there was no one.

The fire was well beyond what anyone could have foreseen but every landlord or their agent should know the basics of possession procedures and this, as you now realise common, method of the council rehousing tenants.

I am shocked at what you said to the council, no wonder they were a bit short with you. Perhaps if you had known the ropes the row with the tenant leading up the the fire could have been diffused? I am in no way defending the tenants, their behaviour was appalling, but if you had believed the tenant in the first place over the council policy that may have helped

There are "professional" tenants out there who know the law inside out and can spot a green landlord from a mile off. They are just the types to nail the landlord should they put a legal foot wrong. I would not bet against your tenants being in this category, they clearly know letting law better than you do.

I don't know how landlords can possibly hand over the keys to a property worth tens, or hundreds of thousands of pounds without knowing in full how to evict a tenant should things go bad, as they can easily do! If you are to let this flat again then do all the necessary research first and make sure your referencing procedure is as effective as possible.

silvercar

Franklee, I'm interested to know your view, what should the landlord do with the tenant possessions and who should pay for storage?

[Deleted User]

I think you would need to put a notice on the flat saying that the possessions are being stored safely and are available for collection upto XX date after which they will be disposed of.

I suspect you would have to allow a reasonable amount of time for collection to be arranged, especially as you suspect tenant is homeless at the moment.

As the possessions are already damaged, a locked garage seems a secure option, further damp is hardly likely to deteriate the contents more.

Thanks silvercar. I believe she must be staying with the aggressive daughter, about 5 miles away. but I have no address.

Given the circumstances, I think 5 days is enough time for to arrange to collect. After all she has had since Wednesday, when I think she must have collected some things and then left the door open.

I have done my best, I think.

I live a two hour drive away. I do know that lock up garages are hard to find in that seaside town.

Do you know, I accepted basic housing benefit because I felt I couldn't ask for more from someone on benefits. Then I discovered she had moved her daughter in too and complained about my lovely flat to the council. Basement at front and ground floor at back. Garden. 4 month old double glazing, 4 year old central heating boiler, new kitchen and bathroom...........oh well.

I've had nightmares two nights running now.

[Deleted User]

Hello Franklee
Perhaps if you had known the ropes the row with the tenant leading up the the fire could have been diffused?

YES. I catch on pretty quickly.

I knew about the s21 and the row only ensued from the tenants end when I phoned to be sure she knew the implications and cost of court order. The daughter grabbed the phone and whilst screaming (the woman must have gills as she didn't pause for breath let alone to let me speak). Whilst screaming threats she screamed that she had taken landlords through this before.

So I agree, there are 'professional tenants' out there working the system.

But never mind about that.

No matter how you may decide that I did things wrong.

No matter how you judge I should have done things better......isn't that what this website is about?

Asking for help from those generous enough to give it?

Otherwise it's like asking for road directions only to get the response 'I wouldn't start from here'

I have done nothing wrong. I complained to the council about the morality of the advice they gave. I knew it would do no good, but it is ridiculous, queue jumping and costly. I felt I had a right to say so.

On the other hand I sent thank you emails when the council cleared a local vermin problem.

franklee

silvercar wrote: »

Franklee, I'm interested to know your view, what should the landlord do with the tenant possessions and who should pay for storage?

There have already been plenty of warnings to cgw to be careful over removal and storage of the tenant's belongings and in changing the locks. Normally none of these are allowed at this stage, expiry of the Section 21 notice that cgw puts great store by does NOT allow this, it just allows the next stage in possession to commence.

But the severity of the fire changes things and frankly I do not know the answer of what the landlord is allowed to do when the contract has been frustrated and the tenant's belongings are too damaged to store. I would strongly recommend cgw take legal advice either from her insurers, a landlord's professional association or one off advice from a solicitor specialising in tenancy laws. If the tenant's belongings are to be discarded then proof of their condition would be needed but I would not discard them until a professional had told me it was OK.

Jumping in and doing what's obvious may land cgw in more trouble. Her tenant in keeping out of contact may just be giving cgw enough rope to make a mistake that they will then sue for. cgw is just an amateur as are most of us here, I think professional advice is necessary.

[Deleted User]

No I was not offended. I'm really grateful for your advice.

I appreciate it so much.

Thank you.

That is the point of this site.

To share experience and expertise.

Its worrying that some posters seem to go off thread and want to overly criticise or blame me.

Thank you for not doing that.

I can phone the insurance legal helpline and the insurance will probably pay for the stuff to be packed and stored.

I just want to be rid of them now - you're right.

After all these days and nights of police, forensics, insurance, loss adjusters, locks, contracts, etc.................

I was in B&Q on Thursday morning at 8.30am. I was buying stuff for the project I'm doing with a group of women in a refuge. I needed something and the guy working there asked what i wanted it for. So i said this project with thre refuge.

He suddenly told me about the still born he and his wife had a month ago and her subsequent breakdown.

I only went in for some paint and stuff but I listened and spoke to him about it. But i did feel like slightly overfull glass of liquid.

one more drop and I would spill.

I know people will probably tell me i should toughen up as a landlady or something, but i think you know what I mean paintpot.

paintpot

Hi

I am a fairly novice landlady in the bigger scheme of things and don't have a big porfolio of properties compared to many but it can be stressful, especially if you have other things on your plate! I could have stamped on mobile phone the other week because every tenant seemed to have a problem, all of a sudden! Because I like to deal with the problems quickly it was a busy time but then you hear of other people's problems and it seems like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill - your case is one of those for me and the man in B & Q was the same for you.

I can see your problem is a big one, maybe you have learned lessons from this experience, I am not one to judge, but we aren't all perfect, it's a steep learning curve being a landlord/lady and anyone who says they have never made a mistake is a liar! If there are lessons to be learnt, learn them and don't repeat them, that is the best you can do under the circumstances. However, I and the other posters don't want you to make any mistakes in handling this scenario so PLEASE, get proper advice BEFORE acting in any way. Not only could you lose alot of money in compensating the nutter but landlords have been known to lose their freedom through their unlawful actions - extreme but true! I don't want to try and add to your worries just be careful. Let us know how you get on and good luck - sincerely.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the advice Franklee. Yes, the severity of the fire complicates things. I had to change locks on advice from police and posted a note as they suggested on the door. That ensures that though the door had been left open, I took steps to secure the property and my tenant's possessions.

I will take advice from my insurer's legal.

Hopefully, she will come on Friday and collect what she wants.

I don't want to have to deal with her and her family alone.

They are nasty people.

clutton_2

With regard to storing burnt and unusable stuff - lets be sensible folks - no one - even this nutty woman - will ever want this stuff - get rid of it would be my actions.

"The tenant left the front door of the property open" - - then this is your perfect "out"

if she left the door open then it is obvious that "someone else" went into the property before you got there and removed her property.

any smoke damaged, wet and sodden property i would make sure it is all "well" wet and then photograph it and take to the nearest tip - on the grounds that you cannot leave it in the property due to health and safety and that it is irreparably damaged - she should have had her own contents insurance when all said and done. If she hasn't - then tough - that her problem.

A woman this unhinged is not going to take you to court for return of her burnt possesions, and this is her only venue to get her burnt stuff back.

go ahead and get dehumidifiers in - the longer you leave this house wet, (including her wet stuff) - the longer you will have an empty property with no tenants and no income - the longer the insurance claim goes on - the higher your premium will be next year

take charge - get rid of her stuff, change the locks, get your life, house and brain back together and let her take you to court if she dare - she wont - of course she wont - She is ill, and she is not your responsibility.

She could have killed your neighbours - why are you putting her interests first - i think this is one case where a landlady should just go ahead and stuff the technical legalities of "what if" and "maybes" and abiding by the letter or the law "

good luck