Does anyone understand the number porting of landlines?

Highland76

Roger.Wilco said:

• iD - is a Mobile MVNO owned & run by TalkTalk not really associated with TalkTalk's wholesale / local-loop network.
  

Sorry but that's incorrect. iD Mobile is owned by Carphonewarehouse & uses the Three network - nothing at all to do with talkTalk.

ColinD1

If an Openreach engineer came to the house can they employ ring back from different reference numbers on different networks?
Admit to bring confused by how  companies using Openreach have their own equipment within the telephone exchanges.

iniltous

OR cannot generate calls from particular networks, chances are any incoming call test would be by using their OR mobile ( EE ) or by contacting their ‘control’ and asking them to call your number , whilst they were attending , (BT) and you don’t have an issue with either of those networks.

By arranging an OR visit , via your provider Vodafone, using a fault report along the lines of incoming calls don’t make my phone ‘ring’, runs the risk of you being charged for an unnecessary visit, your phone ‘rings’ in the majority of cases , AFAIK it’s only calls from one ‘landline’ provider that have an issue.
Its not OR’s ‘problem’ that there is obviously some inter network routing ‘data’ issue, , so there’s a pretty good chance that an OR engineer would call your landline , your phone would ‘ring’, and the problem booked off as such, no fault found , this is the sort of issue that can have charges raised against the Telco for wasting OR’s time, if OR charge them, chances are they will charge you.
FWIW, the way to proceed has already been suggested, the person making the call that you cannot answer needs to report that issue to their provider , rather than you reporting it to your provider , after all the ‘data’ issue isn’t with your provider , but the provider of the person who cannot call you

Roger.Wilco

Highland76 said:

Sorry but that's incorrect. iD Mobile is owned by Carphonewarehouse & uses the Three network - nothing at all to do with talkTalk.

My disclaimer - I have worked in & around this technological area - though, not for a landline service provider in the UK.
Thanks for the correction.

Roger.Wilco

Openreach is only responsible for the cables (fiber & copper) between the handover point in the exchange and the master socket in your house.  That is all that they are responsible for...  they are not responsible for anything other than that - and that is all that they can test/fix.

After some googling a _very_ old webpage that shows what some of the equipment in a BT exchange looked like in 2008: https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/telephone_exchange.htm

Call routing these days is done usually in central located data centers - typically not in exchanges.  In the diagram below the ~5.5k sites represent the local Exchanges and the ~110 sites represent the data centers located around the UK (at least for BT).

Although, the diagram below is a public image from BT - every Operator who participates in LLU services will have their own version of the network below.  The Openreach's part below is only the Blue & Red lines on the far-left of the diagram.  TalkTalk, Vodafone, etc...  will have their own equipment DSLAM/MSAN equipment (called DSL in the diagram below).

How do other Operators connect their equipment to the fiber and copper cables running to your house - via very large distribution frames (Main Distribution Frame in the diagram at the top).

The fact that your home phone rings at all - means that the fiber and copper cabling that Openreach are responsible for is all connected correctly. The issue is a routing/signalling issue elsewhere in what is called the "Call Servers" in the 2nd diagram above - nowhere within the responsibility of Openreach.

The issue is who's "Call Servers" are responsible for the issue...  that needs Vodafone & TalkTalk engineers to troubleshoot.

ColinD1

Who moves the connection from my house on the main distribution frame to a new provider?
Call charges are being raised by Vodafone so I assume this has been done correctly.
How is the tail that was used by TalkTalk between their equipment and the main distribution frame dealt with?
Is the main distribution frame at the building I think of as my local telephone exchange?

Roger.Wilco

ColinD1 said:

Who moves the connection from my house on the main distribution frame to a new provider?

My disclaimer - I have worked in & around this technological area - though, not for a landline service provider in the UK.

So my honest answer is - I don't know - though I'd assume it is who-ever is contracted by the new provider which may be Openreach or one of their partners (maybe Telnet)?.

Call charges are being raised by Vodafone so I assume this has been done correctly.

The fact that calls are incoming & outgoing from your home phone - means that you can assume that Vodafone has the majority of the configuration correct...   however, it doesn't remove them fully from the signalling path so at the moment you cannot fully rule them out.  (My previous reply from the other day).

How is the tail that was used by TalkTalk between their equipment and the main distribution frame dealt with?

Not sure what you mean here... the tail between TalkTalk's equipment and the main distribution frame has no bearing on the issue of some calls from TalkTalk not being sent to your home phone...    The issue would be with the system configuration on TalkTalk's "Call Server(s)" (or possibly Vodafone's Call Servers) on the diagram above.  These days Call Servers are just specialized Telecoms servers... so it is software config - not cable connections that are the issue with your home phone.

Is the main distribution frame at the building I think of as my local telephone exchange?

Yes...   though, you have to appreciate that real-life is never as clean as a PowerPoint diagram.

ColinD1

I suppose I am looking at some dimly remembered notions from my youth of the IOS 7 later model and trying to understand the physical changes that occur when a switch between providers happens and who actually makes these changes.
As I moved from ADSL to FTTC, I understand there was a link inserted between the fibre cabinet and the original cabinet at the end of my road. This is clearly from earlier conversations an Openreach activity/responsibility and happened because my throughput increased on the 20 February.
Not being a devotee of communications technology, I had erroneously believed that both my voice and data services would be carried over fibre.
I am assuming that the data carrier is being filtered and split/inserted at that point to get from/to my house.
TalkTalk had equipment connected to the main distribution frame (presumably inherited from Virgin when Virgin divested themselves of their LLU customers)  that terminated the ADSL line and split the data and voice traffic.
Physically that connection either remains or has been replaced by a connection to Vodafone equipment.
Not sure this is actually helping me towards a resolution, but it is now much clearer that the whole system is much more complex than I thought and that the call handlers and complaints staff are in the most part out of their depth. 
I will pursue the irons I already have in the fire, but if they don't achieve anything I will admit defeat and bite the bullet and take a new number.
My present number was recycled, it was the home number for a TV repair man. I had to tell the distraught lady on the morning of Charles wedding to Diane that I didn't have his new number.
Thank you for your help in my education, it has considerably reduced my stress levels. I do wonder what proportion of  switches end up like this as I would never have detected it unless my son was one and another friend had thought we were in hospital with COVID as we never answered her calls. Also I have a high degree of tenacity and not accepting of explanations that don't make sense.

Roger.Wilco

ColinD1 said:

I suppose I am looking at some dimly remembered notions from my youth of the IOS 7 later model and trying to understand the physical changes that occur when a switch between providers happens and who actually makes these changes.

Again - real life isn't as simple or as clean as a PowerPoint slide...   The truth is that the OSI 7 layer model is a nice way to explain some concepts to students - but it doesn't work in the real world in modern Telecoms networks.

The fact that your home phone can make and receive (most) calls means that the OSI 7 layer model is all OK and the physical connections are also OK.  The issue is with the system configuration elsewhere.

When switching providers there are typically two aspects of the change:

1. Physical connection change.  (If this is not correct - you won't get any calls or Internet)
   
2. System configuration change at both the old and new Operator.  (This is where your issue lays).
   

As I moved from ADSL to FTTC, I understand there was a link inserted between the fibre cabinet and the original cabinet at the end of my road. This is clearly from earlier conversations an Openreach activity/responsibility and happened because my throughput increased on the 20 February.

Not being a devotee of communications technology, I had erroneously believed that both my voice and data services would be carried over fibre.

"Fibre" services in the UK - are a misnomer and are just a marketing thing...  What is typically called "Fibre Internet" in the UK is actually FTTC.  But again - your specific case may be different as technologies like G.Fast are done differently. But the diagram below is typical.

In your situation - all the physical cables - whether it be copper or Fibre are all OK and correct.  If the physical cables were incorrect then you would get no services; or Internet and no voice calls; or voice calls but no Internet and all voice calls would be affected not just TalkTalk and iD (Three)... 

PSTN = Plain Standard Telephone Network = Voice Calls and is where your issue is located.  Not in any of the physical cables.

I am assuming that the data carrier is being filtered and split/inserted at that point to get from/to my house.

TalkTalk had equipment connected to the main distribution frame (presumably inherited from Virgin when Virgin divested themselves of their LLU customers)  that terminated the ADSL line and split the data and voice traffic.
Physically that connection either remains or has been replaced by a connection to Vodafone equipment.

The physical connection would have been disconnected from TalkTalk's equipment - and connected to Vodafone equipment.

Not sure this is actually helping me towards a resolution, but it is now much clearer that the whole system is much more complex than I thought and that the call handlers and complaints staff are in the most part out of their depth.

Call handlers and complaints staff - follow a script.  Though, they should have an escalation path.  But I would not expect the front-line call handlers to have any understanding of the technicalities.  The only way I suspect that this will be fixed is for the TalkTalk and Vodafone Engineering teams to talk to each other and troubleshoot.  As it is a system configuration issue not a physical connection issue.  Likewise - Openreach won't be able to help you in this situation.

I will pursue the irons I already have in the fire, but if they don't achieve anything I will admit defeat and bite the bullet and take a new number.

...

Thank you for your help in my education, it has considerably reduced my stress levels.

If the number is important to you - only you will know whether carrying the torch further is worth it.  I offered my thinking in my reply a day or so ago.

I do wonder what proportion of  switches end up like this as I would never have detected it unless my son was one and another friend had thought we were in hospital with COVID as we never answered her calls. Also I have a high degree of tenacity and not accepting of explanations that don't make sense.

Given that typically the system configuration is automated - I suspect that errors don't happen often.  Though, the fact that it has happened - would definitely in my experience mean that there are many other people affected - who don't realize it.

Page 4 from this PDF provides a nice diagram of the typical service provision structure from 2012: https://www.elexon.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SVG147_06C_Charge_Code_Application.pdf

Page 9 from this PDF provides an updated diagram (2016) in that it includes full fibre service provision and G.Fast from that PDF above - but is not so clear: https://www.fcs.org.uk/image_upload/files/2_2 The growth of fibre_ML presentation FINAL.pdf

ColinD1

Thank you yet again.
I think I am a bit obsessed about the physical aspects back to when I was trying to sort out a problem with a printer. The fault was someone had nicked the printer cable!
The problem is trying to keep contact with the level as it keeps defaulting back to referring to Openreach who report no problem and they drop the ticket without telling you and you are back to square one. I now ask when they are getting back to me and phone them back the next day when they don't. Yesterday I received a "sorry we missed you message" by email. They had used the mobile my wife had taken out with her on a walk she informed that I was waiting at home for the call they had agreed would be on the landline.
I will report back when it is resolved or I finally give up.