Does anyone understand the number porting of landlines? 13 August 2020 at 11:44AM in Broadband & internet access 44 replies 1.1K views

ColinD1

On going problem of moving landline from one provider using Openreach to another provider using Openreach.
This should be is simple as it gets.
Number goes back to British Telecom days. Mine for over 40 years, over 30 at present address.
Everything appeared to go smoothly, calls in and out but discovered we were unreachable from some people (they received ring tone but our phone never rang).
After help from this forum and extreme persistence on my part finally managed to persuade my new provider there was a problem. Their only solution was to give me a temporary number, then request my old number back.
This has now been achieved, but the problem still persists. Is it sensible to give it a few days to settle? The only difference from before is the previous provider claim to have released the number now.
Is the process of changing the number equivalent to the process of a new provider taking over a line?
This has me confused, but not as much as the new provider.
If I moved on to another provider would it help?

Highland76

Who is the new and old provider? Might be worth posting on thinkbroadband.com in the relevation section, as CP staff sometimes are to be help customers.

ColinD1

Old provider was TalkTalk
New provider Vodafone.
Originally with British Telecom when they were the only provider. Very early Virgin Net modem user, then taken over by TalkTalk when Virgin moved to fibre only.
Transfer from TalkTalk to Vodafone went smoothly from the Vodafone side and an absolute nightmare from the TalkTalk side which is still not fully resolved.
Trying to understand the issues rather than look for someone to blame.

Highland76

Ah so its a LLU >> LLU number transfer which can potentially be very tricky - until a few years ago most CPs wouldn't allow such a transfer. Have you tried posting on the Vodafone forums? The VF staff there seem to be more helpful than their telephone counterparts:
https://forum.vodafone.co.uk/t5/Landline/bd-p/Landline

ColinD1

The Vodafone forum is considerably better than the phone. It has got periously close to a solution a few times, but slips back to we are sending out an engineer. Perhaps a visit from an Openreach engineer might shed some light on it. The problem could be looked at as some calls in being routed to a black hole while other calls in and all calls out following the expected route.

This is a strange problem as it almost works, I will wait and get my son to phone at the weekend to see if it does manage to sort itself out. I presume someone could understand the problem and then point out what needs to be done.

To date it has been a bit CTRL-ALT-DELETE approach to fault finding. OFCOM claim this should be easy. From what I can make out a centralised database was rejected as being anti competative. I suspect that many people are in this situation and don't know it. You need to have a close family member who cannot ever reach you, otherwise you would just shrug it off.

Frustrating that you are never allowed to talk to someone who might understand the problem. I have spent hours and hours going through intermediaries.

Roger.Wilco

ColinD1 said:

... Perhaps a visit from an Openreach engineer might shed some light on it. The problem could be looked at as some calls in being routed to a black hole while other calls in and all calls out following the expected route.

This is a strange problem as it almost works, I will wait and get my son to phone at the weekend to see if it does manage to sort itself out. I presume someone could understand the problem and then point out what needs to be done.

I doubt that a visit from an Openreach engineer will shed any light on it - as all the gubbins to get the number switch to work is not the responsibility of Openreach.  Openreach will just check that the wire pairs are connected to where the documentation say they do and that a dial-tone is evident. 

In an ideal world you would need to get the Voice engineers from BT, TalkTalk & Vodafone all in one room to be able to solve this quickly - the reality is different.  I do feel for your plight.

... OFCOM claim this should be easy. From what I can make out a centralised database was rejected as being anti competitive. I suspect that many people are in this situation and don't know it. ...

Frustrating that you are never allowed to talk to someone who might understand the problem. I have spent hours and hours going through intermediaries.

My disclaimer - I have worked in & around this technological area - though, not for a landline service provider in the UK.

OFCOM claim many things - as you understand from your experience easy it is not... reasons why are many:

• Switching numbers was a EU political requirement fostered onto a system that technically, legally, and commercially was never ready for it.  Eastern Europe countries were updating Soviet era equipment and could leap-frog to equipment that supported number switching; the larger high-density West Europe countries were further along the technology upgrade path than the UK.  The UK is not alone - Spain & Italy have similar problems.
  
• The landline system was never initially designed for number switching so has been shoe-horned into workarounds for the technology or equipment that was never built for it and in many cases cannot be easily updated.
• The equipment associated with the landline system is in most cases ancient and despite quite a few projects/attempts to replace over the years - its riskier, harder & more expensive than shareholders will accept.

Mobile systems are a different kettle-of-fish as number switching on mobile systems is actually a pleasant by-product of how the mobile system tracks your phone so that it can send incoming calls to you as you move around the network.

You are correct in that various ideas, schemes and attempts at a centralized national number database have been tried.  Though, none have been successful in being adopted.  Again - there are many reasons why not - mostly commercial.

Because of the reasons I mentioned above number switching/porting for landlines is hard and every country and operator has gone for their own technology and solution.  Therefore, as I have not directly worked for a landline service provider in the UK - what I will try to provide is an educated guess as I don't have exact inside info for BT, TalkTalk or Vodafone.

One thing to understand is that the path for signalling and voice can be different.  Signalling may go through many hops but once signalling is complete the voice may just go direct.

• Your number is registered internationally to BT.  Every other operator in the world if they send a call to that number would switch the call towards BT.
  
• In the past you have switched/ported the number from BT to TalkTalk - therefore, BT basically puts in their system a forwarding record for that number towards TalkTalk.  So the signalling for that call would go from origin to BT to TalkTalk.
• You now switch/port the number from TalkTalk to Vodafone - therefore, TalkTalk puts in their system a forwarding record for that number towards Vodafone.  So the signalling for that call would go from origin to BT to TalkTalk to Vodafone.
• However, if a BT subscriber calls your number - they start at the beginning of the chain.  If a TalkTalk subscriber calls your number they start from the TalkTalk link in the chain.  If a Vodafone subscriber calls your number they would start from the Vodafone link in the chain.  The effective path is therefore, different if your calling from outside the forwarding chain or from a link within that forwarding chain.
  

Now the gubbins is exactly how that forwarding works - as it may be as simple as I have written above.  Or the system (may) actually give you a different number for each transited network and finally resolving at the end.  Each operator may do this differently based on their choices of shoe-horned workarounds and what equipment they actually have and its age.

Cold comfort I realize.  Though, I hope some of the above makes the internal gubbins a little clearer.

ColinD1

Thank you very much for this. I also found a blog that mentioned Communication Providers and Operation Providers. I am surprised it ever works. I broadly understood how STD worked and aware of the issues of routing in a different context, but knew nothing other than OFCOM s assurance that it was required and should not dissuade you from changing provider.
The people I have identified as not being able to reach me are landline customers on TalkTalk and Post Office (another flavour of TalkTalk I believe) and a mobile from iD. These people can NEVER reach me, but receive ring tone. To me this points to a TalkTalk problem or their OP, they are acting as if I am still in their system and routing to a black hole.
I now have to decide whether to give up and take a new number (a number that you give out that may not work is not a viable solution).
There is another body, the OTA I think, that has some jurisdiction but will probably only deal in generalisations. A test case is a good way of flushing out problems as it reduces the chances for obscuration and hand waving.
I presume knowingly disrupting calls to another provider is a violation of a CPs operating licence, but unsure how it is enforced.
All I wanted was a faster internet cheaper, not exploring a new field of knowledge! Thanks again. 

Roger.Wilco

ColinD1 said:

... identified as not being able to reach me are landline customers on TalkTalk and Post Office (another flavour of TalkTalk I believe) and a mobile from iD. These people can NEVER reach me, but receive ring tone. To me this points to a TalkTalk problem or their OP, they are acting as if I am still in their system and routing to a black hole.
...

• TalkTalk - uses their own wholesale / local-loop network
• Post Office - uses TalkTalk's wholesale network
• iD - is a Mobile MVNO owned & run by TalkTalk not really associated with TalkTalk's wholesale / local-loop network.
  

However, although there is a common factor - it doesn't from a user point-of-view point towards who is actually at fault.  Only verifying call signalling at the four points would identify the exact issue:

• TalkTalk core network
• TalkTalk interconnection network with Vodafone
• Vodafone interconnection network with TalkTalk
• Vodafone core network
  

The reason is that each interconnection is typically treated as a totally different source of call and therefore, the config for manipulation for one destination number may need to be setup separately for each interconnection.

For dial-tone to be received by the call originator - only means that the originator's network has received a specific message from what the originator's network believes is the destination network...  who _actually_ creates that specific message can only be identified by troubleshooting the 4 points above.

See the simplified call flow diagram here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISDN_User_Part

Therefore, either of the following may apply:

• TalkTalk is doing everything correctly and forwards call towards Vodafone - but Vodafone for reasons currently unknown sends back the specific message saying that your number is ringing...  which is duly reported as ring-tone to the originating subscribers; however, your number never rings.
• TalkTalk thinks you still belong to their network - and when an incoming call to your number arrives - sends to their exchange equipment where they think you are still connected (which is no-longer connected to their exchange equipment as you have switched/ported) which duly rings (but since you are not attached your phone doesn't ring) and returns the specific message saying that your number is ringing.. which is duly reported as ring-tone to the originating subscribers; however, as your phone is no longer connected to TalkTalk's exchange equipment your number never rings.
  

(The above assumes that in local-loop number switching/porting typical case that your physical connection gets swapped from one land-line operator's exchange equipment to another...  though, this may not be entirely true depending on where you live and what equipment the operators have at that location).

ColinD1

By Occam's razor I think the second solution makes more sence.
Knowledge helps reduce the feeling of sheer frustration when help desk people refuse to believe you.
May have to give up, but at least I know why.
Thanks so much for your knowledge and help.
I like your handle! Just for a couple  of nights away from phones and the internet!

Roger.Wilco

ColinD1 said:

By Occam's razor I think the second solution makes more sense.
Knowledge helps reduce the feeling of sheer frustration when help desk people refuse to believe you.

If you suspect that the problem is with TalkTalk - you are now a Vodafone customer and therefore, are relying on their customer support, escalation and mediation between other operators...   even though Vodafone may not have the problem.

However, if the people that are trying to ring you are with TalkTalk - they can raise a complaint with TalkTalk themselves.  They could then try to escalate to the correct team.  I have no idea how TalkTalk call-center procedures work or what is required for escalation. By any chance do you have have a Linkedin profile?  If so - I've done a quick search and have found a few names of TalkTalk "Voice engineering manager"s...  you could get your acquaintances to send registered delivery correspondence directly.

At the moment you have nothing to loose by getting your acquaintances to raise complaints with TalkTalk directly, you raise a complaint to Vodafone and send similar correspondence to OFCOM and CISAS.  (It appears that Vodafone & TalkTalk are not part of the Ombudsman scheme...).  If you or your acquaintances are elderly? or vulnerable - then you can also point out safeguarding concerns if your acquaintances cannot contact you.  Keep all correspondence records.

Contact the Communication and Internet Adjudication Scheme (CISAS) Call 020 7520 3827 or email [email protected] (their website is currently replying with internal error).

Good luck.

ColinD1

Thanks again.
I have an ongoing complaint with CISAS about TalkTalk.
On the balance of what I had discovered from OFCOM and earlier conversations with TalkTalk I had centred the issue about them continuing to charge me after I had left. I requested an explanation as what had gone wrong. The reply "manual  error" was considered sufficient by CISAS, but no help to me.
Vodafone appear to be taking it seriously, having phoned me back today as promised. Should ring back again tomorrow.
CISAS and the Communications ombudsmen are both alternative complaints arbitration services and are commercial concerns paid for by the service providers. TalkTalk changed between them sometime ago.
I presume there is a regulation/law/licence agreement that forbids a Service Provider knowingly disrupting calls? Letter th TalkTalk CEO?