Mother-in-law and money

chubster

JReacher1 said:

chubster said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Thanks,
Is the £8k/year MIL income about right?
Did MIL make a previous capital contribution?

I am really not sure about her total income, it isn't something that gets discussed at a guess I would say £9k a year. When we bought the house MIL sold her house and paid £20k towards the house we live in now.

Maybe would have been fairer on the MIL to mention this at the beginning. So as well as paying you £1k a year she also gave you £20k when you bought your house. As a guess she is probably not on the deeds so when she does pass away that’s £60k you’ve made off her (based on the house trebling in value). Probably a reasonable amount to cover the cost of her living with you. 

OK I see your point about the contribution towards the purchase of the house however the issue is the ongoing running and living costs. If MIL was still living on her own and running her own house it would cost more than £1,000 a year wouldn't it?  You couldn't live in a tent for less than £20 a week including all bills and food! The £60k is only realised if we sell the house and downsize to a much smaller property which MIL is absolutely opposed to. 

JReacher1

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

And of that £134 a week the OP wants to take £100 of it

No.He said £400pm, which is £92.30pw. 
Her income is not £134pw, iI's that plus her work pension (unknown but let's say £19pw) and savings interest (maybe £15pw. ). Total £168pw.
The OP is suggesting maybe £92pw, but appears open to compromise. The point is that there's a huge gulf between £92 and £19, and MIL doesn't seem prepared to offer a penny more than she's paying at present, which is clearly unsustainable. 
Her £1K doesn't just cover rent, it covers food, electricity, gas, water, insurance, phone, council tax... possibly transport...
What would you suggest is a reasonable compromise?

The majority of these figures are made up so are basically nonsense. 

Why is it unsustainable? The OP’s wife will have a view on the family finances and she is happy with the current arrangement. It seems only the OP has a problem with the current situation. 

Made up? I think not. In the absence of any actual figures from the OP, they are reasonable estimates based on the limited info we have. But they are the lowest her income can be-it could be higher, depending on the work pension. 
And you've not answered the question. Based on the only figures we do have, what is reasonable? 
PS: I see that the OP has now come back and given a figure of around £9K, which was roughly what I estimated it to be originally. That's £750pm, of which she is currently paying £83pm. Are you seriously suggesting that paying just 11% of her disposable income in return for 'full board and lodging' is equitable?

She owns a fifth of the house. 

chubster

maman said:

It depends whether you are looking at MIL as a lodger. I don't think OP wants to do that, at least his wife doesn't. 

No, I definitely don't see MIL as a lodger she is a member of the family and we invited to come to live with us.

macman

JReacher1 said:

chubster said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Thanks,
Is the £8k/year MIL income about right?
Did MIL make a previous capital contribution?

I am really not sure about her total income, it isn't something that gets discussed at a guess I would say £9k a year. When we bought the house MIL sold her house and paid £20k towards the house we live in now.

Maybe would have been fairer on the MIL to mention this at the beginning. So as well as paying you £1k a year she also gave you £20k when you bought your house. As a guess she is probably not on the deeds so when she does pass away that’s £60k you’ve made off her (based on the house trebling in value). Probably a reasonable amount to cover the cost of her living with you.

Since MIL contributed to the deposit on the house, not the mortgage, her contribution does not reduce the year-on-year overheads at all. If MIL contributed say 20% of the cost of the house purchase, then, were a commercial rent being paid, it would be fair to reduce it by the same amount, 20%. But it doesn't mean she can live free of all the other costs of running the house even after the mortgage is paid.
This has nothing to with anything the OP may eventually inherit, which could be zero.

FreetodoasIlike

Look at it another way. Do you have (adult) children? I am assuming that you and your wife are probably in your mid to late 50s? If you DID have adult children still living at home (and fortunate enough to be in a job) you would expect them to make a financial contribution towards household bills, wouldn’t you? Even if they were fervently saving for a house deposit you would still ask them to contribute more than £20 a week - even if you could afford not to, you would still want to teach them the value of money and how much things cost in the real world, wouldn’t you?  I appreciate that a young adult may eat more than an elderly lady, but not always. I have an ex-work colleague who is several years older than me. She claims to “eat like a bird” but I have been on meals out with her and she eats more than the rest of us. The packed lunch she used to bring to work would feed two people! £20 a week is nothing. As you said your MIL doesn’t drive and doesn’t go out, but as another poster on here said, she surely has GP/optician and other appointments etc. which would all add up if she had to attend by taxi. Your MIL clearly doesn’t understand the cost of living nowadays. My own mother (who lives on her own in sheltered accommodation) doesn’t to an extent either. I have PoA and her debit card but she still queries the £25/£30 a week grocery shop - when ours is a
around £80/ £90! You really do need to have “the conversation” about money. Does a large proportion of the £80k savings she has come from her house sale 10 years ago? I suspect, as she doesn’t contribute much financially, that she’s added to the savings over the years and thinks that is her daughter’s inheritance. But, as others have pointed out, no-one knows what’s around the corner and the savings she’s accumulated could easily go on care home expenses. There’s no guarantee that your wife will inherit. Also, you say that your home is large enough for her to have her own space. Who cleans this “space”? Who does your MIL’s washing and ironing/changes her bedding? I suspect it’s your wife. If that’s the case, your MIL is getting a very good deal indeed! She is clearly “blinkered” and you (and your wife especially) need to talk to her.

PS - I don’t know how old your MIL is, but my mother is 99 and still going strong. If your MIL is only in her early 80s she could live for another 20 years or so. The cost of living will always rise with inflation and you could find yourselves in this same situation in 19 or 15 years time. 

macman

JReacher1 said:

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

And of that £134 a week the OP wants to take £100 of it

No.He said £400pm, which is £92.30pw. 
Her income is not £134pw, iI's that plus her work pension (unknown but let's say £19pw) and savings interest (maybe £15pw. ). Total £168pw.
The OP is suggesting maybe £92pw, but appears open to compromise. The point is that there's a huge gulf between £92 and £19, and MIL doesn't seem prepared to offer a penny more than she's paying at present, which is clearly unsustainable. 
Her £1K doesn't just cover rent, it covers food, electricity, gas, water, insurance, phone, council tax... possibly transport...
What would you suggest is a reasonable compromise?

The majority of these figures are made up so are basically nonsense. 

Why is it unsustainable? The OP’s wife will have a view on the family finances and she is happy with the current arrangement. It seems only the OP has a problem with the current situation. 

Made up? I think not. In the absence of any actual figures from the OP, they are reasonable estimates based on the limited info we have. But they are the lowest her income can be-it could be higher, depending on the work pension. 
And you've not answered the question. Based on the only figures we do have, what is reasonable? 
PS: I see that the OP has now come back and given a figure of around £9K, which was roughly what I estimated it to be originally. That's £750pm, of which she is currently paying £83pm. Are you seriously suggesting that paying just 11% of her disposable income in return for 'full board and lodging' is equitable?

She owns a fifth of the house. 

No, she doesn't own any of the house. She gifted the OP and his wife £20K to purchase it. But if you feel, morally, she 'owns' 20% of it, then I'd happily concede that the rent component of her contribution can be reduced to 80% to reflect that. 
But that still doesn't make £19pw equitable.

macman

Perhaps we can come at this from a different angle? The OP says his wages will be reduced by more than half-and he is the sole wage earner in the household. 
Could he tell us, if willing, how much loss this represents annually, then we are better equipped to see whether an increase in MIL's rent to £4.8K is too much, too little, or about right?

JReacher1

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

macman said:

JReacher1 said:

And of that £134 a week the OP wants to take £100 of it

No.He said £400pm, which is £92.30pw. 
Her income is not £134pw, iI's that plus her work pension (unknown but let's say £19pw) and savings interest (maybe £15pw. ). Total £168pw.
The OP is suggesting maybe £92pw, but appears open to compromise. The point is that there's a huge gulf between £92 and £19, and MIL doesn't seem prepared to offer a penny more than she's paying at present, which is clearly unsustainable. 
Her £1K doesn't just cover rent, it covers food, electricity, gas, water, insurance, phone, council tax... possibly transport...
What would you suggest is a reasonable compromise?

The majority of these figures are made up so are basically nonsense. 

Why is it unsustainable? The OP’s wife will have a view on the family finances and she is happy with the current arrangement. It seems only the OP has a problem with the current situation. 

Made up? I think not. In the absence of any actual figures from the OP, they are reasonable estimates based on the limited info we have. But they are the lowest her income can be-it could be higher, depending on the work pension. 
And you've not answered the question. Based on the only figures we do have, what is reasonable? 
PS: I see that the OP has now come back and given a figure of around £9K, which was roughly what I estimated it to be originally. That's £750pm, of which she is currently paying £83pm. Are you seriously suggesting that paying just 11% of her disposable income in return for 'full board and lodging' is equitable?

She owns a fifth of the house. 

No, she doesn't own any of the house. She gifted the OP and his wife £20K to purchase it. But if you feel, morally, she 'owns' 20% of it, then I'd happily concede that the rent component of her contribution can be reduced to 80% to reflect that. 
But that still doesn't make £19pw equitable.

You do like to make things up 😂

where does the OP say it was a gift?  The OP says she contributed £20k to the £100k purchase price. That is not a necessarily a gift. 

chubster

macman said:

Perhaps we can come at this from a different angle? The OP says his wages will be reduced by more than half-and he is the sole wage earner in the household. 
Could he tell us, if willing, how much loss this represents annually, then we are better equipped to see whether an increase in MIL's rent to £4.8K is too much, too little, or about right?

My wage will be around £16k after reduction in my hours

maman

I think comparing the situation to adult children living at home just opens up another can of worms. If they are saving madly for a deposit then you'll likely have taught them (rightly so) the value of money long before they become adults. Many posters would gladly let their adult children live rent free, if they can afford it, as an alternative to the bank of mum and dad.
So, OP, wanting to treat MIL as a member of the family rather than a lodger takes on a new perspective i. e. it depends how you'd treat a member of the family. 
The question is can he afford it. I haven't done the maths but there are two questions IMO. One is the practical one whether OP and his wife's reduced income actually allows them to fund the current lifestyle. The other is more a principle of whether because their income is reduced that they should try to increase it by asking MIL for more whether they technically need it or not.