Financial abuse, how to talk about money

sunflowerstar

onwards&upwards said

Think of the impact on the kids too, do you want them to see your marriage as an example of a normal, healthy way for adult couple to relate to each other?  Or for husbands to treat wives?

No, this is always something I think about. Particularly because we’ve fallen into very ‘traditional’ gender roles in a sense. Even though if I earned more, he would have stayed at home. I’m conscious of it because it’s the opposite to what I’m like and how I was brought up. But I’d like to see the children see me OR him pay the bill for dinner or whatever, interchangeable because it doesn’t matter because we are equal. 

zagfles

The trouble with threads here is that most posters seem to enjoy delivering judgemental responses, rather than helpful responses. Being told "he's wrong, he's abusing you, he's behaving unacceptably" etc might be exactly what you need if you've almost decided to leave him and are wavering and just want a bit of moral support that you're doing the right thing, but doesn't sound like that's where you are, you have an otherwise happy marriage and just want this one issue resolving. 

So, in an attempt to hopefully help you rather than judge, please take these questions as something to think about to help you resolve the problem, rather than an attempt to judge where the blame lies:

Firstly, what do you think his issue is? What was the problem in his previous marriage, was it financial? Does he have an issue trusting anyone else with money? Why does he feel this need to control finances, but nothing else?

Does he hate his job, perhaps he feels that he has worked hard for the money and therefore it's his? Or perhaps he feels this is one area he can control to make up for lack of control elsewhere, for instance, who makes decisions about the kids etc, is that all equal?

Was having 4 kids genuinely the positive decision of both of you, it sounds like it probably was, but if for instance he was unsure but reluctantly went along with your desire for more children, he may, possibly subconsciously, feel resentful about having to spend so much income on supporting not only them but you looking after them?

In our case - we had separate finances up until the point we had kids when we ended up in a similar situation to you - it was me giving my wife "housekeeping" and it did cause problems, I was initially reluctant to lose my total control over my finances, as it's something I'm good at and something that's important to me (and probably most MSE'ers), however it was incredibly liberating for both of us, to understand there is no longer "mine" and "yours" but "ours". In a family with a SAH parent and 4 kids, having separate finances just seems bizarre to me now. It might be necessary in some cases if one or the other partner is financially irresponsible eg will spend on frivolous stuff without thinking or has a gambling habit etc, but it doesn't sound like that's the case with you.

Lastly - don't underestimate your earning capacity. You could earn around the same take home as him, seriously! If he's earning £60k, he'll have a marginal deduction rate of around 75% in the £50-60k band, taking account tax, NI and child ben loss, so on £60k full time, £30 an hour, he's taking home £7.50 an hour in that range.

Min wage is £8.72 an hour, and you'd take home 100% of the first £9500 which is tax and NI free, and won't affect child ben (that works on the higher income not joint, bizarrely). So if he reduced his hours a bit (if he can), say going to a 4 day week instead of 5, and you got a NMW job same hours eg one day a week, you might be better off overall! And it would give you a level of financial independance (wages plus probably restored child ben) and would give him more time with the kids. And perhaps to do the shopping so he gets to see what things cost!

onwards&upwards

zagfles said:

Being told "he's wrong, he's abusing you, he's behaving unacceptably" etc 

It is wrong, he is abusing her and it is unacceptable. 

Shying away from the harsh reality of these situations and not facing up to what it really is is one of the things that helps it to continue. 

zagfles

onwards&upwards said:

zagfles said:

Being told "he's wrong, he's abusing you, he's behaving unacceptably" etc 

It is wrong, he is abusing her and it is unacceptable. 

Shying away from the harsh reality of these situations and not facing up to what it really is is one of the things that helps it to continue. 

Lots of things are "wrong" and "unacceptable". What helps them to continue is to simply sit in moral judgement, rather than examine and try to address the underlying cause. Same with a lot of things, crime etc.

That's what I was trying to help the OP do. You carry on judging, I'm sure it makes you feel good and morally superior, not sure it helps the OP though. I'm trying a different approach.

sunflowerstar

Zagfles - thank you so much for such a detailed response and from pulling on your own experience. I really appreciate this. His job... he enjoys his field but not his role. It’s demanding, any hours and involved international travel before the current pandemic situation. He is looking to change his job once we’re mortgage free. 

And yes, we have both said before we might be just as well off if we both had jobs that paid ‘less’ as we have lots of friends who’s overall household take home income is very similar to ours yet they collectively earn less than my husband. 

I am fully aware of the abuse factors - it’s in the title of the post. I know lots of people in this situation need to be told a spade is a spade and perhaps need permission to leave. That’s it’s ok. 

I know leaving is ok, I’d be able to buy a nice little house mortgage free and I’d be pretty good. As I’ve said, I’m not afraid to leave. But I don’t want to because apart from this, everything is good. But I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and respond, I’ve got a little notebook where I’ve made a bulletin point list of all the points raised  

zagfles

sunflowerstar said:

Zagfles - thank you so much for such a detailed response and from pulling on your own experience. I really appreciate this. His job... he enjoys his field but not his role. It’s demanding, any hours and involved international travel before the current pandemic situation. He is looking to change his job once we’re mortgage free. 

And yes, we have both said before we might be just as well off if we both had jobs that paid ‘less’ as we have lots of friends who’s overall household take home income is very similar to ours yet they collectively earn less than my husband. 

I am fully aware of the abuse factors - it’s in the title of the post. I know lots of people in this situation need to be told a spade is a spade and perhaps need permission to leave. That’s it’s ok. 

I know leaving is ok, I’d be able to buy a nice little house mortgage free and I’d be pretty good. As I’ve said, I’m not afraid to leave. But I don’t want to because apart from this, everything is good. But I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and respond, I’ve got a little notebook where I’ve made a bulletin point list of all the points raised  

No problem - just one more thought - does your "housekeeping" include stuff for the kids like new shoes, clothes, pocket money etc? What we did with ours from about age 13 was to give them quite a big allowance (around £120-140 a month) but it would be for all their personal spending (except food etc) - including stuff they wouldn't choose to spend money on like new shoes, school wear, school trips, plus anything else they wanted like hobbies, mobile topups, games etc.

£140 sounds a lot, but as teenagers it was the sort of amount they needed for the essentials plus a reasonable amount extra for hobbies & treats, and they were really really good at budgetting, it was actually quite mind blowing how good they were! Occasionally I'd give them a "loan", an advance which they knew would be paid back from future deductions but was always for a big one off, not frivolous stuff, and they budgetted for it.

Anyway, point is it might be a way to both teach your kids financial independance plus show your husband how much they actually need. And if he pays them, well, maybe more "housekeeping" for you if he still insists you should have an "allowance"! And maybe it will occur to him that he's really treating you like a child in the same way as the kids with an "allowance"...

Anyway good luck, hope you manage to resolve this.

thorsoak

£400 a month, to feed and clothe a family with four children, pay for out of school activities, their clothes and presents - and to budget for Christmas/birthdays is pretty hard going.   

Savvy_Sue

sunflowerstar said:

I claimed the child benefit, my NI payments are full and up to date. I still claim the child benefit, he opted out because it’s on his tax, I don’t have to have anything to do with it. When CB became a means tested benefit it made a big difference to many people and I could go on about that all day regardless of my situation. 

I had no issue with the opt out at first, we had a £2500 bill every January which was always jarring. But I assumed he would up the housekeeping to make up the shortfall. 

Have you told him this, and specifically have you told him that you NEEDED this money for regular expenditure, which is why you weren't saving it? 

I'd be seriously tempted, if he doesn't get the message, to just restart the claim and let him deal with that bill next January. You NEED that money. 

Although the idea of giving an allowance to the older children for their clothes might also help - as long as he paid that! And did not then deduct it from your meagre allowance. 

SeaVixen

mrs_T said:

Have you thought of getting a job and earning your own money?

Yes. She's said that.
I understand this is a long thread now, but asking questions which have already been answered just make it longer unnecessarily.