No return within 90 minutes PCN

nosferatu1001

If you want to use the data for anything else, for example ina  court claim, electronic is going to be very much easier to deal with than paper. 

go-on-then

I have been looking at POFA sch 4  regarding my PCN ,  it was posted to the keeper / address on the PCN,   and would be grateful if someone could please have a look over some points for me and say yea or nay  thank you - 

9  (2) The notice must -
(b) Inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and the parking charges have not been paid in full.

My point -   On the PCN the wording is  '  the driver is liable for the charge '   and not   ' the driver is required to pay '  ?  
Also worth noting is the fact that it is a free car park for a couple of hours so for the time they allege the vehicle was there, 22 mins, there wouldnt have been any parking charge. 


(d)  Specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is - 
(i)  specified in the notice; and
(ii) no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper.

My point -  it does not have the wording in (ii) anywhere on the PCN .


(f)  warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given - ( does not say that / have that wording anywhere )
(i)  the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full and
(ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, ( they do not know the driver)
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this schedule are met ) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.

My point -  the wording on the PCN is ' Should the Parking Charge remain unpaid after 28 days of this notice being sent additional charges arising from debt recovery and/or court action may be incurred.     Not the same wording  ? 



(3)  The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub paragraph (2)(a) ( but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices each specifying different parts of a single period of parking )   

My point - the period of parking is given on the PCN as  - 
17/08/2018 11:28:21 AM
17/08/2018  11:50:16 AM
No evidence is given, photographic or otherwise,  as none exists,  as to how this actual period of parking is at fault / breach. 
The reason of issue for the PCN is ' vehicle returned within a no return period of 90 minutes '   Therefore, how can anything after the given period of parking be included,  as it can only relate to one period of parking, so the alleged second return is a separate matter  ? 
At the bottom of the PCN it states on the cut off payment slip to be returned to ES -  
PCN ref no. XXX
Vehicle reg  XXX
Incident Date and Time : 17/08/2018 - 12:12.
This is after the first period of parking so that cannot be 'a single period of parking'  ? 

Hope that makes sense !  Comments welcome, thank you.

go-on-then

I should clarify the comment about there being no parking charge for a couple of hours at the car park,  at the top of my post,   it is £2 all day until 6pm or 3 hours free. 

Coupon-mad

go-on-then said:

I have been looking at POFA sch 4  regarding my PCN ,  it was posted to the keeper / address on the PCN,   and would be grateful if someone could please have a look over some points for me and say yea or nay  thank you - 
9  (2) The notice must -
(f)  warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given - ( does not say that / have that wording anywhere )
(i)  the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full and
(ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, ( they do not know the driver)
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this schedule are met ) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.
My point -  the wording on the PCN is ' Should the Parking Charge remain unpaid after 28 days of this notice being sent additional charges arising from debt recovery and/or court action may be incurred.     Not the same wording  ? 

(3)  The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub paragraph (2)(a) ( but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices each specifying different parts of a single period of parking )   

My point - the period of parking is given on the PCN as  - 
17/08/2018 11:28:21 AM
17/08/2018  11:50:16 AM
No evidence is given, photographic or otherwise,  as none exists,  as to how this actual period of parking is at fault / breach. 
The reason of issue for the PCN is ' vehicle returned within a no return period of 90 minutes '   Therefore, how can anything after the given period of parking be included,  as it can only relate to one period of parking, so the alleged second return is a separate matter  ? 
At the bottom of the PCN it states on the cut off payment slip to be returned to ES -  
PCN ref no. XXX
Vehicle reg  XXX
Incident Date and Time : 17/08/2018 - 12:12.
This is after the first period of parking so that cannot be 'a single period of parking'  ? 

The above points have legs.

The lack of the 8(2)f or 9(2)f warning about the keeper being liable, is the killer. This is a non-POFA Notice.

go-on-then

Thank you !!    Just to check,   the exact wording on the PCN is - 

Parking Charge Notice
Do not ignore this notice
Date of sending  28/08/2018
Name and address

Dear Sir/ Madam
Please read this notice and act upon it immediately.  We are writing to you as you are the Registered Keeper of the above motor vehicle with the Registration Number xxxxx in relation to a Parking Charge incurred on the 17/08/2018 (12:12) at Multi-Storey Car Park, Union Street, Accrington.  Reason of Issue: Vehicle returned within a no return period period of 90 minutes.

The driver of the above vehicle is liable for the Parking Charge in the above amount which, at the date of this notice, remains unpaid in full and for which the Balance Due remains outstanding. This charge relates to the period of parking specified above, the charge having been incurred for the reason stated and liability for the same having been brought to the attention of the driver by clear signage in and around the Site at the time of parking.

Payment is now required in the sum of £100 within 28 days of the issue date i.e.  no later than 25/09/2018. However, if payment is received within 14 days of the issue date,  i.e. no later than 11/09/2018,  then a reduced amount of £60 will be accepted i  full and final settlement.  We , ES Parking Enforcement  Ltd, are the creditor. At the time of this notice we do not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and as the registered keeper of the vehicle YOU ARE NOW REQUESTED TO :  Pay the unpaid Parking Charge; or if you were not the driver of the vehicle, to notify us ( Online by using the Transfer of Liability portal- see overleaf) of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver AND pass this Notice on to the driver.

Should the Parking Charge remain unpaid after 28 days of this notice being sent additional charges arising from debt recovery and/or court action may be incurred.

PARLKING CHARGE DETAILS
PCN Reference Number  xxxx
Vehicle Registration   xxxx
Vehicle Colour
Vehicle Make
Period of Parking:
17/08/2018   11:28:21 AM 
17/08/2018   11:50:16 AM
Amount Due Within 28 days £100
Payment options and instructions  can be found overload.

PARKING CHARGE REFERENCE:
XXXX
VEHICLE DETAILS
XXXXX
DURATION OF STAY
00.00:21  ( DD:HH:MM) 

There are 2 photographs, which are  very very dark, you could even say black, with a date and time top left of the pic. It is impossible to determine where these 2 pics are taken.    On the reverse of the PCN it says - (  along with all info as regards payments/ appeals/ complaints /transfer liability etc ) - 

Photographic evidence    Additional images of the incident can be viewed online at xxx. 
 There are 4 pictures of just the number plate and 4 very dark pictures ( again it would be impossible to say where any have been taken ) where you can just about make out the front of the vehicle in each one.

Coupon-mad

No need to check, this is OBVIOUSLY not a 'keeper liability' warning statement:

Should the Parking Charge remain unpaid after 28 days of this notice being sent additional charges arising from debt recovery and/or court action may be incurred.

go-on-then

Many thanks for your help.    Excuse my ignorance on this,  but is it possible to now use that fact it is non POFA PCN anywhere, in the hope of  getting the PCN discontinued or would that be futile , and have to just carry on going through the process, so to speak and add it to WS etc ? 
Thank you. 

Le_Kirk

Your first post said that you had submitted the defence; did you mention no keeper liability and non-PoFA in your defence?  If you did it is easy to include this in your witness statement (WS) and submit it as evidence, if not, you are going to have to be clever in putting it in as WS are not supposed to be a defence nor introduce NEW defence points.

1505grandad

Defence that was filed appears to be posted on 26th April at 5.44pm and contains:-

"5) The particulars of claim on the claim form xxxxxx state -

The claimant claims the unpaid PCN from the defendant as the driver/keeper of the vehicle. The driver of the vehicle has not been identified as there is no evidence of who was driving. It  cannot be assumed the keeper/driver are one and the same at the time of the alleged contravention."

go-on-then

Thank you,   I will incorporate it into that section regarding keeper/driver liability, when the times comes..

I have received SAR data from Gladstones.  Amongst other things, which I will have to have a look through later,   they have sent a copy of a Letter Before Claim.    I did not receive a Letter Before Claim,   as I now know to be common practice. 

It states - Letter Before Claim
Re    ES Parking Enforcement 
Amount due    £160
Vehicle Reg    xxxxx
We act on behalf of the claimant and have now been instructed to commence legal action against you to recover the amount due above  as you have failed to settle the debts that are owing or provide a valid reason for non payment. We understand that our client has written to you to request payment but the amounts are still standing.

PCN xxx
Date of Charge   17/08/2018
Location   Accrington m storey
Charge Amount     £160

The charge amount includes £60 claimed by our client for the time spent and resource facilitating the recovery of the charge. The amount is a pre determined  and nominal contribution to our client's  losses as a direct result of your non payment.
If you believe you have a valid reason for non payment you are able to reply pursuant to paragraph 4 of the pre action protocol  for debt claims under the civil procedure rules 1998 (the PAP)

We refer you to paragraph 2.1(c) of the PAP which obliges the parties to act reasonably and proportionately. 


As I stated I did not receive a letter before claim.


' £60 claimed by our client for the time spent and resource facilitating the recovery of the charge '       Really ??  So what is the £100 on the PCN for ?? 


'predetermined '     means something that is decided on and agreed to beforehand.   I did not agree to anything and ES Parking have decided this and never stated anywhere that £60 will be added on.  

' nominal contribution to our client's losses '       Be serious.  And then there's the age old argument of how much their client has actually lost in a free car park.


They are saying that ES Parking is claiming the £60,   but that still doesnt make it legal ??