Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Coastalwatch

Exiled_Tyke said:

Yep I've put myself forward for Kirk Hill.  If anyone needs details PM me.  Thanks for the support  @Coastalwatch and @QrizB.   

Great @Exiled_Tyke, I'll spread the word.

Solarchaser

I appreciate I'm a month late to this conversation, so apologies for resurrecting it.

My good lady decided that the little leaf was a bit too long, and decided that an x5's towbar was the best way to shorten it 🤨

For the last few weeks I've been pulling part together to try and restore its length and part of that process was stripping alot of its front end off.
I was pretty disappointed to see the front crossmember mounts were quite heavily rusted


I thought at least @michaels would want to know, as you also have a 2015 leaf.
I've rubbed it down and por15'd it, so hopefully it will last a while yet.

The discussion about life of an ev vs life of a ice, I guess I'd say its hard to figure out what a good average is.
Lots of bigger cars, rep mobiles if you like, mondano, mazda 6, insignia etc will expect a couple of hundred thousand miles, whereas most of your corsa, fiesta, micra etc will be unlikely to reach over 80k.

In terms of reliability, many modern vehicles engines will run fairly flawlessly for hundreds of K miles, but that doesn't make their mild steel exhausts rust any slower, nor their clutches, brakes, gearboxes, radiators etc last any longer.
Often it's the culmination of multiple failures that kill a car, the gearbox will not stay in 3rd, the exhaust is blowing and sometimes the clutch slips etc.

However as was alluded to by several users, it's more commonly rust which kills older cars, and Evs are not immune to that.

Will EVs have much lower maintenance costs? I don't think any sane person could argue that one, of course they will.
Will they last longer in miles, most likely. 
Will they ask longer in years? Only time will tell, my feeling is, likely not, as normal folk will be somewhat hesitant about welding a 400Vdc car chassis, and that won't be resolved until its common, which is probably 20 years away.

On the plus side, it should ensure a decent supply of 2nd hand batteries.

silverwhistle

Solarchaser said:

On the plus side, it should ensure a decent supply of 2nd hand batteries.

That keeps being put back though. I seem to recall a couple of years ago about Leaf batteries being repurposed for home storage and used for conversions, but the number never seemed to increase much and the price of second hand ones remained high.

More recently there have been companies setting up to recycle batteries into their component parts, and there is the unenviable task of trying to keep in step with the demand but not run unprofitably ahead of it.

More enthusiastic front end crashes might help (sorry!) but if it's any consolation there's a brand new MG4 in Bristol, fresh off the boat and being used as a demonstrator, which was written off on its test drive.. Ouch.

It's definitely a case of watch this space though.

Grumpy_chap

Solarchaser said:

The discussion about life of an ev vs life of a ice, I guess I'd say its hard to figure out what a good average is.
Lots of bigger cars, rep mobiles if you like, mondano, mazda 6, insignia etc will expect a couple of hundred thousand miles, whereas most of your corsa, fiesta, micra etc will be unlikely to reach over 80k.

That difference in durability is not down to the capability of the engine in the Corsa versus the durability of the engine in the Insignia but down to time.  Time waits for no man, nor any ICE it would seem.  I can't see why time would wait for an EV either.

Solarchaser said:

Will EVs have much lower maintenance costs? I don't think any sane person could argue that one, of course they will.

There was a post in the other EV thread about this very matter in the last couple of days suggesting that EV maintenance cost is no lower.:

JKenH said:

EV servicing revenues ‘very similar’ to ICE according to report

https://www.catmag.co.uk/article/ev-servicing-revenues-very-similar-to-ice-according-to-report/

Based upon the logic that we share and understand around less bits to go wrong, if the consumer charge is similar, then the garages must be making more profit.
I postulated in the other thread that manufacturer's are pricing the servicing to be similar to what we expect from an ICE.  A similar thing seems to be happening with public paid-for charge points.

I responded in this thread, but suspect we'll get a slap on the wrist as this is not news...  

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

The discussion about life of an ev vs life of a ice, I guess I'd say its hard to figure out what a good average is.
Lots of bigger cars, rep mobiles if you like, mondano, mazda 6, insignia etc will expect a couple of hundred thousand miles, whereas most of your corsa, fiesta, micra etc will be unlikely to reach over 80k.

That difference in durability is not down to the capability of the engine in the Corsa versus the durability of the engine in the Insignia but down to time.  Time waits for no man, nor any ICE it would seem.  I can't see why time would wait for an EV either.

Solarchaser said:

Will EVs have much lower maintenance costs? I don't think any sane person could argue that one, of course they will.

There was a post in the other EV thread about this very matter in the last couple of days suggesting that EV maintenance cost is no lower.:

JKenH said:

EV servicing revenues ‘very similar’ to ICE according to report

https://www.catmag.co.uk/article/ev-servicing-revenues-very-similar-to-ice-according-to-report/

Based upon the logic that we share and understand around less bits to go wrong, if the consumer charge is similar, then the garages must be making more profit.
I postulated in the other thread that manufacturer's are pricing the servicing to be similar to what we expect from an ICE.  A similar thing seems to be happening with public paid-for charge points.

I responded in this thread, but suspect we'll get a slap on the wrist as this is not news...  

I think a distinction needs to be made between servicing, which was the subject of the article, and maintenance/repairs. I have seen reports that there may be a shortage of EV technicians atm which could impact on servicing costs in the short term. 

michaels

Solarchaser said:

I appreciate I'm a month late to this conversation, so apologies for resurrecting it.

My good lady decided that the little leaf was a bit too long, and decided that an x5's towbar was the best way to shorten it 🤨

For the last few weeks I've been pulling part together to try and restore its length and part of that process was stripping alot of its front end off.
I was pretty disappointed to see the front crossmember mounts were quite heavily rusted


I thought at least @michaels would want to know, as you also have a 2015 leaf.
I've rubbed it down and por15'd it, so hopefully it will last a while yet.

The discussion about life of an ev vs life of a ice, I guess I'd say its hard to figure out what a good average is.
Lots of bigger cars, rep mobiles if you like, mondano, mazda 6, insignia etc will expect a couple of hundred thousand miles, whereas most of your corsa, fiesta, micra etc will be unlikely to reach over 80k.

In terms of reliability, many modern vehicles engines will run fairly flawlessly for hundreds of K miles, but that doesn't make their mild steel exhausts rust any slower, nor their clutches, brakes, gearboxes, radiators etc last any longer.
Often it's the culmination of multiple failures that kill a car, the gearbox will not stay in 3rd, the exhaust is blowing and sometimes the clutch slips etc.

However as was alluded to by several users, it's more commonly rust which kills older cars, and Evs are not immune to that.

Will EVs have much lower maintenance costs? I don't think any sane person could argue that one, of course they will.
Will they last longer in miles, most likely. 
Will they ask longer in years? Only time will tell, my feeling is, likely not, as normal folk will be somewhat hesitant about welding a 400Vdc car chassis, and that won't be resolved until its common, which is probably 20 years away.

On the plus side, it should ensure a decent supply of 2nd hand batteries.

Interesting - any way to get anywhere near this (with a camera?) to inspect without taking the bumper off?

Also I wonder if the anti-corrosion warranty might come into play?

Solarchaser

The wheel arch liner is quite easily removed, id say take this off, or just peel it back from the front of the wheel and it should reveal the crossmember. 

Servicing for an Ev is almost non existent.
There is no engine oil and filter change interval etc, so there really is no argument to say servicing costs would be even in the same league.

If you want to argue repair costs for damage, that's a different thing all together,  but quite simply going from Telsa 3, there is zero servicing.
If you are talking breakdowns,  again different thing, neither of those are servicing.

Regarding corsa vs insignia,  I didn't say it was engine durability,  didn't even suggest it, I alluded to the mileage they are likely to see.

Martyn1981

I did see a news piece on servicing costs, but it was in Australia, so I didn't think anyone would be interested at the time, but perhaps a good example now, as we transition to BEV's, and the dealerships lose revenue.

So, folk had ordered a BYD (I forget the model, but it was a great package), and news broke of a change, so that they'd have to pay Aus$3k for servicing over 5yrs, or warranties could be void. In fairness, the complaints weren't targeted at BYD themselves, but at the Australian dealerships that had gotten the distribution rights, and presumably realised that revenue would be low.

I'm not aware of anything similar in the UK, and our Hyundai IONIQ service and MOT is roughly £130, which is pretty good I think. Tesla doesn't really have a servicing schedule, but I think they recommend getting the A/C checked every few years.


I've also seen loads of articles and vids (all quite boring to be fair), running through the revenue streams for legacy dealerships, and manufacturers. They make an awful lot of money on servicing and supplying / installing original parts (for mechanical wear and tear*), and most of that revenue will dry up. Plus of course, normal servicing wear and tear, such as oil / oil filters, air filters and brake pads, and the profits on labour and time.

*From the ICE side, but not just engine parts, also clutch, gearbox, intake, exhaust, cooling etc..

shinytop

Solarchaser said:

Servicing for an Ev is almost non existent.
There is no engine oil and filter change interval etc, so there really is no argument to say servicing costs would be even in the same league.

Don't underestimate the capacity for those who service coming up with a price to fit the money they think is available (as @grumpy_chap mentioned earlier).  As ASHP 'service', which is a clean and check only, costs a lot more than a gas boiler one. I expect the EV trade to try the same.  

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

I've also seen loads of articles and vids (all quite boring to be fair), running through the revenue streams for legacy dealerships, and manufacturers. They make an awful lot of money on servicing and supplying / installing original parts (for mechanical wear and tear*), and most of that revenue will dry up. Plus of course, normal servicing wear and tear, such as oil / oil filters, air filters and brake pads, and the profits on labour and time.

*From the ICE side, but not just engine parts, also clutch, gearbox, intake, exhaust, cooling etc..

Well, perhaps this is part of the reason there is such a large cost of acquisition difference between ICE and EV.  Is some of the ICE business model based on the Gillette Model, whereas EV's don't have the continuous revenue stream...

The only thing is, the even better solution for EV manufacturers would be to sell the capital at high price and then still create a premium revenue stream for the life-time (which a lot of consumers will accept because they are conditioned to through ICE history).