Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

2nd_time_buyer

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

I've also seen loads of articles and vids (all quite boring to be fair), running through the revenue streams for legacy dealerships, and manufacturers. They make an awful lot of money on servicing and supplying / installing original parts (for mechanical wear and tear*), and most of that revenue will dry up. Plus of course, normal servicing wear and tear, such as oil / oil filters, air filters and brake pads, and the profits on labour and time.

*From the ICE side, but not just engine parts, also clutch, gearbox, intake, exhaust, cooling etc..

Well, perhaps this is part of the reason there is such a large cost of acquisition difference between ICE and EV.  Is some of the ICE business model based on the Gillette Model, whereas EV's don't have the continuous revenue stream...

The only thing is, the even better solution for EV manufacturers would be to sell the capital at high price and then still create a premium revenue stream for the life-time (which a lot of consumers will accept because they are conditioned to through ICE history).

... or have a revenue stream through a charging network.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

I've also seen loads of articles and vids (all quite boring to be fair), running through the revenue streams for legacy dealerships, and manufacturers. They make an awful lot of money on servicing and supplying / installing original parts (for mechanical wear and tear*), and most of that revenue will dry up. Plus of course, normal servicing wear and tear, such as oil / oil filters, air filters and brake pads, and the profits on labour and time.

*From the ICE side, but not just engine parts, also clutch, gearbox, intake, exhaust, cooling etc..

Well, perhaps this is part of the reason there is such a large cost of acquisition difference between ICE and EV.  Is some of the ICE business model based on the Gillette Model, whereas EV's don't have the continuous revenue stream...

The only thing is, the even better solution for EV manufacturers would be to sell the capital at high price and then still create a premium revenue stream for the life-time (which a lot of consumers will accept because they are conditioned to through ICE history).

Exactly ... yes, the Gillette Model.

If I see an article or vid running through this again I'll post. But from memory it shows up as a significant revenue stream on the earnings report, presumably under revenue from parts supply, as separate from car sales revenue. As you'll be aware, original manufacturerer parts have a very high premium price, and dealerships have to (I think?) use them.

I don't want to overplay this part, in case I have it wrong, but if I recall correctly, the profitability of parts supply makes up a very significant part of the overall profit, as ICE car sales profit margins have traditionally been razor thin as the market is well established and highly competitive, especially on smaller, lower value vehicles.

I've also seen some articles/vids suggesting that the greater complexity of ICEV's can be seen in the higher warranty expenditures (per vehicle) in legacy auto's accounts. However, I'm not sure that that's a fair comparison yet, v's rapidly growing BEV only companies, since, using Tesla as an example:

Their highest annual sales will be in the last year, so those cars are only in the first year of warranty.
Their second highest sales will be in the period 1-2yrs ago, so again only part of a warranty period.
And so on, whereas for legacy auto, with longer term sales, they will have a more even number of vehicles throughout their warranty period (say 5yrs just as an example), so would(?) expect more warranty costs per vehicle.

Just to be clear, I'm really not sure if I'm thinking straight on those warranty costs, so BEV's may be doing better, but I suspect we need more time for a fairer comparison / understanding.

Hope this makes sense, and hope I've got it right(ish) but it is from memory, and not 'stuff' that I paid the most attention too.

JKenH

Tesla it seems has a different business model to OEMs. After sales service provision  (if you read the forums) is poor. Its service centre growth is not keeping up with sales. I read of M3 owners having to wait months for replacement windscreens. 

It is, though, often lauded for having significantly higher margins than OEMs but it achieves this by selling its cars at higher prices than many other (not all) manufacturers offering similar range cars. Tesla cars are no longer cheap. Is that profiteering? Is Tesla quality better than a Hyundai or Kia? The likes of VW/Hyundai/Kia already have a dealer network in place with service facilities and showrooms which have to be paid for through repeat servicing business. Meanwhile the likes of Mercedes BMW and Audi offer cosseting showrooms and obsequious staff to justify the high servicing and purchase prices. It’s horses for courses.

Just a comment on the reports from EV fleet operators of higher servicing costs vs the personal experience of private users. The fleet operators have health and safety obligations to their drivers and might be deemed negligent if they failed to follow manufacturers recommended service schedules. While an individual might skimp on a 2 year brake fluid change a fleet owner would not. The real difference in cost in the first 3/4 years is perhaps the value of 4 litres of oil and an oil and air filter and that might not be every year. Fleet vehicles, I would have thought, would need an inspection at least once a year whether the manufacturer recommends it or not. The main dealer is likely to provide a courtesy vehicle for the business user. It is perhaps no surprise therefore that the cost of servicing an EV is similar to an ICE for the fleet owner.

shinytop

JKenH said:

Tesla it seems has a different business model to OEMs. After sales service provision  (if you read the forums) is poor. Its service centre growth is not keeping up with sales. I read of M3 owners having to wait months for replacement windscreens. 

It is, though, often lauded for having significantly higher margins than OEMs but it achieves this by selling its cars at higher prices than many other (not all) manufacturers offering similar range cars. Tesla cars are no longer cheap. Is that profiteering? Is Tesla quality better than a Hyundai or Kia? The likes of VW/Hyundai/Kia already have a dealer network in place with service facilities and showrooms which have to be paid for through repeat servicing business. Meanwhile the likes of Mercedes BMW and Audi offer cosseting showrooms and obsequious staff to justify the high servicing and purchase prices. It’s horses for courses.

Just a comment on the reports from EV fleet operators of higher servicing costs vs the personal experience of private users. The fleet operators have health and safety obligations to their drivers and might be deemed negligent if they failed to follow manufacturers recommended service schedules. While an individual might skimp on a 2 year brake fluid change a fleet owner would not. The real difference in cost in the first 3/4 years is perhaps the value of 4 litres of oil and an oil and air filter and that might not be every year. Fleet vehicles, I would have thought, would need an inspection at least once a year whether the manufacturer recommends it or not. The main dealer is likely to provide a courtesy vehicle for the business user. It is perhaps no surprise therefore that the cost of servicing an EV is similar to an ICE for the fleet owner.

I'm not even sure servicing is built into the OEMs' business models.  My last employer's lease company had all servicing done by a 3rd party provider with nothing at main dealers.  So nothing to do with the manufacturer.  And most service parts/supplies are 3rd party and not OEM supplied. That  was one of the big lease companies.  No courtesy car but they picked the car up and dropped it back at the office so definitely a cost.  

Solarchaser

As someone who in a previous life worked in a dealership, I can tell you that a dealership is setup so that the garage servicing part should make enough revenue to support the entire business, and so any revenue by parts department or sales is a bonus.

Tesla aftersales have been pretty spot on for me, squeeking door card reported through the app, and replaced less than a week later.
A few months ago there was apparently a worldwide shortage of tm3 windscreens, this is word of mouth from a colleague who suffered a Stone strike from a truck, and had to wait nearly 3 months.

I'd imagine they will have quite a few windscreen replacements in their lifetime, the very low bonnet and angle of both bonnet and windscreen lends itself to higher frequency of road rubbish hitting the screen at a good angle for impact.

Regarding lease, the report from a lease company I've never heard of might be the start of an avalanche, or it may be a single anomaly. 

I know friends who have teslas from 3 of the biggest least companies,  lex, ald and leaseplan, and so far all have conformed to tesla guidance of no servicing at all.

All are passed the first year and all are past 30k miles.

Regarding courtesy cars, most dealerships in the last 3-5 years have moved away from automatic courtesy cars, in my experience, even Mercedes would not offer a courtesy car automatically,  though did when pressed.
VAG refused.

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

As someone who in a previous life worked in a dealership, I can tell you that a dealership is setup so that the garage servicing part should make enough revenue to support the entire business, and so any revenue by parts department or sales is a bonus.

Tesla aftersales have been pretty spot on for me, squeeking door card reported through the app, and replaced less than a week later.
A few months ago there was apparently a worldwide shortage of tm3 windscreens, this is word of mouth from a colleague who suffered a Stone strike from a truck, and had to wait nearly 3 months.

I'd imagine they will have quite a few windscreen replacements in their lifetime, the very low bonnet and angle of both bonnet and windscreen lends itself to higher frequency of road rubbish hitting the screen at a good angle for impact.

Regarding lease, the report from a lease company I've never heard of might be the start of an avalanche, or it may be a single anomaly. 

I know friends who have teslas from 3 of the biggest least companies,  lex, ald and leaseplan, and so far all have conformed to tesla guidance of no servicing at all.

All are passed the first year and all are past 30k miles.

Regarding courtesy cars, most dealerships in the last 3-5 years have moved away from automatic courtesy cars, in my experience, even Mercedes would not offer a courtesy car automatically,  though did when pressed.
VAG refused.

Thanks for that insight.

Coastalwatch

It would seem there must demand for these EV tractors for Ideanomics to commission a plant of this scale and while production may be limited to this one model presently a larger model is planned for 2023.

One would imagine that most agricultural businesses have roof and land area a plenty to locate PV that would make an ideal companion for lowering future running costs along the path to achieving net zero. 

Ideanomics opens electric tractor factory in California

The US-American company Ideanomics, which specializes in electric utility vehicles, has commissioned what it claims is the largest assembly plant for electric tractors in North America. The plant in Windsor, California, has the capacity to produce 4,100 electric tractors annually.

The vehicles built in Windsor are from Solectrac, a manufacturer acquired by Ideanomics. Production capacity for the e25 model will triple with the opening of the new plant. The compact electric tractor, with its 22 kWh battery, can be used for between three and six hours, depending on the load.

The Windsor facility will also serve further growth: in 2023, Ideanomics also plans to begin assembling the model e70N at its plants in Windsor, as well as in Denton, North Carolina, and launch new models.

https://www.electrive.com/2022/10/28/ideanomics-opens-electric-tractor-factory-in-california/

Martyn1981

Could be popular, a small (tiny?) and cheap Chinese model arriving on sale in Germany this year. NEDC range is 124 miles, and whilst that rating is overly optimistic, for city driving it may be closer to reality.

Mullen Announces The I-GO — €12,111 Mini EV For Europe

Now, Mullen, an emerging electric vehicle manufacturer, has announced that it has secured exclusive sales, distribution, and branding rights to a new compact urban delivery electric vehicle. The vehicle is called the I-GO and is fully EU-standard homologated and certified for sale in select European markets. The vehicle is made in China.

Mullen says the I-GO is perfect for urban European markets and that the I-GO bridges the gap between the growing demand for quick deliveries and space constraints found throughout the dense cities of Europe. Although in China the vehicle is mostly a passenger vehicle, Mullen and its partners have optimized and configured the I-GO to be a commercial EV that is fully certified and ready for sale in the UK, Germany, Spain, France, and Ireland. The first vehicles are set for Germany in December 2022. The starting price is $11,999 (€12,111) plus VAT and local transportation. Mullen is engaged in licensing discussions with potential partners. The I-GO will be retailed and serviced through local European distributors.

The Mullen I-GO, intended for companies focusing on last-mile deliveries, is based on a 96-inch wheelbase, 16.5-kWh battery pack, rear-wheel drive, and a curb weight of 1,753 lb. With a range of 124 miles, according to the NEDC estimate, the vehicle can easily handle the stop/go and weave in/out typical of narrow European urban streets. The I-GO was built with the intention of getting to the customer’s door faster, all while decreasing pollution and congestion levels across Europe.

Martyn1981

Small update on the Mullen i-go. [Just me fussing.]

I wasn't happy with the pic in that article, as it doesn't give enough perspective. Also, wasn't sure why a 'car looking car' is described as a commercial delivery vehicle. So here's a link to the site for the car. Though the first pic is rather disturbing with an odd looking driver/image. Plus I suspect it's been photoshopped into a LHD country?

It doesn't say much more, but I think I now have a better appreciation of the vehicle type and size.

This site suggests a range of 100 miles, which at about 6miles/kWh seems reasonable.

Urban Delivery EV i>go

2nd_time_buyer

Martyn1981 said:

Small update on the Mullen i-go. [Just me fussing.]

I wasn't happy with the pic in that article, as it doesn't give enough perspective. Also, wasn't sure why a 'car looking car' is described as a commercial delivery vehicle. So here's a link to the site for the car. Though the first pic is rather disturbing with an odd looking driver/image. Plus I suspect it's been photoshopped into a LHD country?

It doesn't say much more, but I think I now have a better appreciation of the vehicle type and size.

This site suggests a range of 100 miles, which at about 6miles/kWh seems reasonable.

Urban Delivery EV i>go

I am a big fan of small cars. IMO the UP/Citigo/Mii is the pinnacle of ICE design - the true successors to the original mini. I am kind of surprised that they have not taken off more. The current taste seems to be much more in favor of cars that are enormous on the outside, pokey on the inside, and offer a completely detached driving experience.