Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

.............As batteries constitute a huge part of the environmental impact of EVs (particularly those like mine which cover low mileages) it makes sense that if you double the size of an EV battery you will significantly increase its emissions and that is what we are currently doing. 

If an EV starts life with a big battery then the point at which battery degradation renders the car unviable is several years longer than a car with a small battery. The whole life emissions of a M3 LR could therefore be a lot less than a 25kWh Leaf?

We could argue this for a while or perhaps we could just agree to disagree.

You would have to agree that a lot of early Leafs have been scrapped due to battery degradation whereas most Model S' are still on the road? 

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

.............As batteries constitute a huge part of the environmental impact of EVs (particularly those like mine which cover low mileages) it makes sense that if you double the size of an EV battery you will significantly increase its emissions and that is what we are currently doing. 

If an EV starts life with a big battery then the point at which battery degradation renders the car unviable is several years longer than a car with a small battery. The whole life emissions of a M3 LR could therefore be a lot less than a 25kWh Leaf?

We could argue this for a while or perhaps we could just agree to disagree.

You would have to agree that a lot of early Leafs have been scrapped due to battery degradation whereas most Model S' are still on the road? 

I suspect the reason the Leaf has suffered worse battery degradation than the Tesla is down to the two different battery management technologies not battery size. Undoubtedly Tesla has the better approach with its active battery management giving longer battery life. A 62 kWh Leaf will no doubt be scrapped long before a Tesla Model 3 SR even though the Leaf has a bigger battery. 

Have a read of this article which includes the following comment.

Smaller EVs with modest battery sizes are better for the environment; whereas the largest luxury EV models could need three times longer to pay back their carbon cost.

https://www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SN7605_DRAX_Report_Q2_190828-

michaels

Do we know what the average mileage of a scraped leaf is? - I suspect in the UK at least, most are still on the road unless they have had expensive mechanical failure (rare?) or crash damage.  There are quite a few high mileage ones around, even 24s but I guess there are probably lots that have only been used for a few k per year.  Suppose the average one does 15 years and 90k miles (same as UK cars in general) then you would assume that miles per battery kwh will be higher than 70-100 kwh Teslas that would need to do 3 -4  times as many miles to get the same usage from their batteries.

Separate question if 90k miles is enough to overcome the CO2 deficit in manufacture, probably depends on the grid.  In terms of local pollution though there is no comparison vs an ice.

orrery

JKenH said:

Smaller EVs with modest battery sizes are better for the environment; whereas the largest luxury EV models could need three times longer to pay back their carbon cost.

https://www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SN7605_DRAX_Report_Q2_190828-

Are you seriously quoting from a massive fossil fuel burning company trying to green-wash it's reputation ... ?

Exiled_Tyke

orrery said:

JKenH said:

Smaller EVs with modest battery sizes are better for the environment; whereas the largest luxury EV models could need three times longer to pay back their carbon cost.

https://www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SN7605_DRAX_Report_Q2_190828-

Are you seriously quoting from a massive fossil fuel burning company trying to green-wash it's reputation ... ?

I can't even see the reason for posting the comment about the cars.  It isn't exactly a surprise. Big cars have always been worse for the environment than little ones (all other things being equal (such as use of AdBlue etc..)).  

However the article does draw attention to another issue (going off thread I'm afraid). The problem of balancing the grid when high wind production in Scotland can't transfer to high consumption in the South

JKenH

orrery said:

JKenH said:

Smaller EVs with modest battery sizes are better for the environment; whereas the largest luxury EV models could need three times longer to pay back their carbon cost.

https://www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SN7605_DRAX_Report_Q2_190828-

Are you seriously quoting from a massive fossil fuel burning company trying to green-wash it's reputation ... ?

This type of comment is exactly why I suggested to Nick we agree to disagree. If you actually read the article (from 2019) it is very supportive of EV/RE, eg 

Attention must now shift from ‘zero coal’ to ‘fossil free’. Unabated natural gas (without carbon capture and storage) needs to be removed from the grid mix by 2050 to tackle the climate crisis and ensure the UK hits net-zero emissions across the whole economy.

Britain is proof that renewables can achieve things that weren’t imaginable just a decade ago.

Zero carbon electricity is “the job that can’t wait”. Britain only has a few more years to wait before the first “fossil-free” hours become a reality.

It is inconceivable that an electric vehicle in the UK could be more polluting than its conventional equivalent. 

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

.............As batteries constitute a huge part of the environmental impact of EVs (particularly those like mine which cover low mileages) it makes sense that if you double the size of an EV battery you will significantly increase its emissions and that is what we are currently doing. 

If an EV starts life with a big battery then the point at which battery degradation renders the car unviable is several years longer than a car with a small battery. The whole life emissions of a M3 LR could therefore be a lot less than a 25kWh Leaf?

We could argue this for a while or perhaps we could just agree to disagree.

You would have to agree that a lot of early Leafs have been scrapped due to battery degradation whereas most Model S' are still on the road? 

I suspect the reason the Leaf has suffered worse battery degradation than the Tesla is down to the two different battery management technologies not battery size. Undoubtedly Tesla has the better approach with its active battery management giving longer battery life. A 62 kWh Leaf will no doubt be scrapped long before a Tesla Model 3 SR even though the Leaf has a bigger battery. 

Have a read of this article which includes the following comment.

Smaller EVs with modest battery sizes are better for the environment; whereas the largest luxury EV models could need three times longer to pay back their carbon cost.

https://www.drax.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/SN7605_DRAX_Report_Q2_190828-

The point I'm trying to make is that if the original Leaf had had a 50kWh battery then, even with high degradation, many more would still be viable. A M3LR would still be serviceable with over 50% of it's original capacity missing.

JKenH

michaels said:

Do we know what the average mileage of a scraped leaf is? - I suspect in the UK at least, most are still on the road unless they have had expensive mechanical failure (rare?) or crash damage.  There are quite a few high mileage ones around, even 24s but I guess there are probably lots that have only been used for a few k per year.  Suppose the average one does 15 years and 90k miles (same as UK cars in general) then you would assume that miles per battery kwh will be higher than 70-100 kwh Teslas that would need to do 3 -4  times as many miles to get the same usage from their batteries.

Separate question if 90k miles is enough to overcome the CO2 deficit in manufacture, probably depends on the grid.  In terms of local pollution though there is no comparison vs an ice.

Nissan Leafs can do high mileages and Teslas are not immune from battery degradation.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089091_owner-of-100000-mile-nissan-leaf-electric-car-to-be-honored-monday

https://www.zap-map.com/electric-taxi-company-clocks-100000-miles-in-nissan-leaf/

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/

EricMears

Does it really matter how long it takes an EV to 'repay its CO2 investment'  ?

Whilst it would be nice to 'repay' it in a few months,  as long as it has been 'repaid' before the car is scrapped the 'nett CO2 cost of ownership' will be negative.  Even if you keep an ICEV  for a hundred years a similar claim could never be made.

Exiled_Tyke

EricMears said:

Does it really matter how long it takes an EV to 'repay its CO2 investment'  ?

Whilst it would be nice to 'repay' it in a few months,  as long as it has been 'repaid' before the car is scrapped the 'nett CO2 cost of ownership' will be negative.  Even if you keep an ICEV  for a hundred years a similar claim could never be made.

Absolutely - although of course the shorter the time the better. But as long as it DOES payback is all that really matters.