Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

The C-Class is currently at a starting point of just under £40k.  Competitive EV alternatives seem to be £55k kind of level if the TM3LR / BMW i4 is an appropriate pick of alternatives.  This is still challenging for the pay-back position, total cost of ownership and still presents the challenge as to whether the individual buying the C-Class can resource or finance the extra £15k.  Bearing in mind many people seem to borrow far more than they ever sensibly should in any case for car purchase.

......

FWIW - I don't actually like the styling of the C-Class EV shown in the linked articles.  I do like the current C-Class / E-Class and the EQE / EQS so maybe the design will be more modest by the time the model is launched.  For all my comments above, if the car came in at <£50k for a suitable range I'd give serious consideration.

What about the TM3 at around £46k, and 300 miles of range. With fuel savings wouldn't that probably beat the C-Class on monthly costs from day/month one?

How about the Ioniq 5 (Tron car) also around 300 miles, I still can't decide if I love the looks or not?

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

zeupater said:

I have no particular issues with legacy auto, but have a very strong feeling that we've already seen the volume peak of the likes of BMW & Mercedes as they operate in the very price/quality segment that BEVs need(ed) to target to achieve the necessary scale to drive cost/price down, so having squandered years of developing EV volume manufacturing it's probably time to panic & try to survive with fewer models now as opposed to continue to think that offering a wide range of models at some time in the future (described as 'in the coming years') is a workable solution.          

HTH - Z ...

Timely news from Tesla, who just received another massive Giga-Press from IDRA, this time for the Cybertruck. These press' allow entire substructures to be cast, rather than put together from multiple parts. The two cast pieces for the Model Y replace about 70 parts each, plus the people, machines, and line space/time to assemble them. Sandy Munro suggested that these presses only make financial sense when production of a model, at each factory (with a press installed), exceeds 100k pa.

I suspect we will see less models in the future, certainly the number of platforms they are built off, for legacy auto as they try to compete with the new BEV only competition, and the Chinese.

Watch IDRA Assemble Tesla Cybertruck's 9,000-Ton Giga Press

Mercedes also apparently used a Giga press for the EQXX so we might expect them to be using these in production. VW will be using them at its new Trinity plant but not until 2026. BMW has rejected them on the basis that repair costs outweigh manufacturing savings. 

It will be interesting to see how the insurance industry reacts to vehicles produced using giga presses. I have also wondered whether integrating batteries into the structure of vehicles will impact on repair costs and hence insurance costs. Tesla believe that autopilot will reduce the number of accidents their vehicles are involved in so do not appear concerned at the insurance implications. 

While at the moment we see giga castings being used in executive class cars (primarily by Tesla) the potential for casting the whole floor pan exists for smaller vehicles. 

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The C-Class is currently at a starting point of just under £40k.  Competitive EV alternatives seem to be £55k kind of level if the TM3LR / BMW i4 is an appropriate pick of alternatives.  This is still challenging for the pay-back position, total cost of ownership and still presents the challenge as to whether the individual buying the C-Class can resource or finance the extra £15k.  Bearing in mind many people seem to borrow far more than they ever sensibly should in any case for car purchase.

......

FWIW - I don't actually like the styling of the C-Class EV shown in the linked articles.  I do like the current C-Class / E-Class and the EQE / EQS so maybe the design will be more modest by the time the model is launched.  For all my comments above, if the car came in at <£50k for a suitable range I'd give serious consideration.

What about the TM3 at around £46k, and 300 miles of range. With fuel savings wouldn't that probably beat the C-Class on monthly costs from day/month one?

How about the Ioniq 5 (Tron car) also around 300 miles, I still can't decide if I love the looks or not?

Yes, they could certainly be considered competitors to the C-Class and make the finances work in terms of overall cost of ownership plus more likely to be something that can be resourced as an alternative (extra finance possible).

I am still alarmed by the E-Class vs EQE cost differential.  It is substantial.  If we accept the majority of new cars are on finance / PCP and that I am ignorant of how that really works in terms of eligibility.  The finance must take earnings into account as part of the application.  How much earning does an individual need to PCP an E-Class at £42k?  How much earnings does an individual need to PCP an EQE at >£70k?

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

The C-Class is currently at a starting point of just under £40k.  Competitive EV alternatives seem to be £55k kind of level if the TM3LR / BMW i4 is an appropriate pick of alternatives.  This is still challenging for the pay-back position, total cost of ownership and still presents the challenge as to whether the individual buying the C-Class can resource or finance the extra £15k.  Bearing in mind many people seem to borrow far more than they ever sensibly should in any case for car purchase.

......

FWIW - I don't actually like the styling of the C-Class EV shown in the linked articles.  I do like the current C-Class / E-Class and the EQE / EQS so maybe the design will be more modest by the time the model is launched.  For all my comments above, if the car came in at <£50k for a suitable range I'd give serious consideration.

What about the TM3 at around £46k, and 300 miles of range. With fuel savings wouldn't that probably beat the C-Class on monthly costs from day/month one?

How about the Ioniq 5 (Tron car) also around 300 miles, I still can't decide if I love the looks or not?

Yes, they could certainly be considered competitors to the C-Class and make the finances work in terms of overall cost of ownership plus more likely to be something that can be resourced as an alternative (extra finance possible).

I am still alarmed by the E-Class vs EQE cost differential.  It is substantial.  If we accept the majority of new cars are on finance / PCP and that I am ignorant of how that really works in terms of eligibility.  The finance must take earnings into account as part of the application.  How much earning does an individual need to PCP an E-Class at £42k?  How much earnings does an individual need to PCP an EQE at >£70k?

Surely it's the retained value that's still dictating the monthly cost of a PCP? This will change gradually now that interest rates are rising but new vehicle finance is still cheap for those with an excellent credit history. Underwriters have been wary of EVs but the pendulum is starting to swing the other way with EV residuals regularly beating ICE vehicles. 

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

Surely it's the retained value that's still dictating the monthly cost of a PCP? This will change gradually now that interest rates are rising but new vehicle finance is still cheap for those with an excellent credit history. Underwriters have been wary of EVs but the pendulum is starting to swing the other way with EV residuals regularly beating ICE vehicles. 

Agree on retained value determining the monthly payment within PCP.  The individual is also taking on the total debt for the period of the term and incurring more interest if the value starts at £70k instead of £40k.

So, a "middle manager" wanting a "nice" car befitting their "status". 
They probably can acquire an E-Class at around £42k list, but that's still £500 a month.  
Ordinarily, if that same individual were to write a thread on here saying they wanted a £75k car instead, the standard answer would be that the individual cannot afford that car, buy something cheaper.
Does the car being an EV magically change the level of debt the individual is wise to carry?

According to the following article, a "middle manager" would be making around £50k:
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/middle-manager-salary-SRCH_KO0,14.htm

Grumpy_chap

Well, this is interesting.
To try to answer my question about the finance provision between the regular E-Class (£42k) and the EQE (£75k), I visited the MB website and there is a finance eligibility calculator that only asks for name, e-mail, phone, date-of-birth, address and time at address.  No queries on salary or income.  I could not test whether there was a second step as I did not want a search on my file.
Do they really not consider income at all?

JKenH

I just looked at this site for a comparison of Personal lease cost of E class saloon vs EQE, taking the cheapest quote for 5k miles/48mths. I dare say there are differences in spec between the two cars but it’s a starting point. 

EQE

£893.66

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/eqe/

E class £482.36

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon/

If you are able to lease the EQE under a salary sacrifice scheme then the difference in cost to the higher tax rate payer is much reduced, hence the popularity of EVs under SS schemes.

Edit: this article explains how SS works

https://www.whichev.net/2021/10/04/how-salary-sacrifice-can-make-evs-cheaper-than-petrol-or-diesel/

1961Nick

JKenH said:

I just looked at this site for a comparison of Personal lease cost of E class saloon vs EQE, taking the cheapest quote for 5k miles/48mths. I dare say there are differences in spec between the two cars but it’s a starting point. 

EQE

£893.66

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/eqe/

E class £482.36

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon/

If you are able to lease the EQE under a salary sacrifice scheme then the difference in cost to the higher tax rate payer is much reduced, hence the popularity of EVs under SS schemes.

Edit: this article explains how SS works

https://www.whichev.net/2021/10/04/how-salary-sacrifice-can-make-evs-cheaper-than-petrol-or-diesel/

A fairer comparison would probably be the E400d in which case the difference is down to around £100.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

I just looked at this site for a comparison of Personal lease cost of E class saloon vs EQE, taking the cheapest quote for 5k miles/48mths. I dare say there are differences in spec between the two cars but it’s a starting point. 

EQE

£893.66

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/eqe/

E class £482.36

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon/

If you are able to lease the EQE under a salary sacrifice scheme then the difference in cost to the higher tax rate payer is much reduced, hence the popularity of EVs under SS schemes.

Edit: this article explains how SS works

https://www.whichev.net/2021/10/04/how-salary-sacrifice-can-make-evs-cheaper-than-petrol-or-diesel/

OK, so you SS £500 per month for the ICE and incur tax liability (40% tax payer) of £400 per month so the total cost is £900 per month.
Alternatively SS £900 per moth for the EV and incur tax liability of £300 for the whole year.  Total cost £925 per month.
In that scenario, where the option is available, it is a no-brainer.

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

I just looked at this site for a comparison of Personal lease cost of E class saloon vs EQE, taking the cheapest quote for 5k miles/48mths. I dare say there are differences in spec between the two cars but it’s a starting point. 

EQE

£893.66

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/eqe/

E class £482.36

https://www.cars2buy.co.uk/personal-car-leasing/mercedes-benz/e-class-saloon/

If you are able to lease the EQE under a salary sacrifice scheme then the difference in cost to the higher tax rate payer is much reduced, hence the popularity of EVs under SS schemes.

Edit: this article explains how SS works

https://www.whichev.net/2021/10/04/how-salary-sacrifice-can-make-evs-cheaper-than-petrol-or-diesel/

A fairer comparison would probably be the E400d in which case the difference is down to around £100.

…and therefore the EQE is cheaper to a 40% taxpayer with SS than the E400D.