Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

Based on miles driven to percent loss, my TM3 'frg' (because they look a bit like a squashed frog from the front), looks good for 250 miles (out of 350) when driven enthusiastically - it's very hard not to keep dabbing the GO pedal when you know it'll leap forward like it's shot out of a catapult. I've got a couple of 300 mile trips coming up soon, so plan to drive in chill mode (not sport), which will mean a lot less than ~500 ponies available to me, but hopefully at about 70mph on the motorway, will give me a decent range and efficiency to report back. A friend recently played nice with his on a gentle trip home, of about 40 miles and achieved about 220Wh/mile. I think he averaged 260Wh/mile on a long trip to the South of France and back, at ..... let's just say high(ish) speeds.

Back to the article:

Yes I got to Inverness once, very slowly, then spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find a vacant, working charger to get back home.

That seems a bit odd, as you'd have thought he'd have checked how far away the nearest Supercharger was instead (as they tend to be located on motorways, between cities, as the long range of Tesla's mean they don't need them dotted everywhere) and would have been pleasantly surprised, even shocked, to find a 6 stall V3 supercharger actually located in Inverness itself. TM3's can take the whole 250kW's at a V3 if the battery is not too full, so at roughly 1,000mph charging speed, 150 miles of range would take approx 9mins.

Maybe he needed to charge in Glasgow too, in the picture, but about 10 miles outside is a 12 stall 150kW supercharger station, and more N, S and E of Glasgow, depending on his route!

Very ..... interesting.

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

Based on miles driven to percent loss, my TM3 'frg' (because they look a bit like a squashed frog from the front), looks good for 250 miles (out of 350) when driven enthusiastically - it's very hard not to keep dabbing the GO pedal when you know it'll leap forward like it's shot out of a catapult. I've got a couple of 300 mile trips coming up soon, so plan to drive in chill mode (not sport), which will mean a lot less than ~500 ponies available to me, but hopefully at about 70mph on the motorway, will give me a decent range and efficiency to report back. A friend recently played nice with his on a gentle trip home, of about 40 miles and achieved about 220Wh/mile. I think he averaged 260Wh/mile on a long trip to the South of France and back, at ..... let's just say high(ish) speeds.

Back to the article:

Yes I got to Inverness once, very slowly, then spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find a vacant, working charger to get back home.

That seems a bit odd, as you'd have thought he'd have checked how far away the nearest Supercharger was instead (as they tend to be located on motorways, between cities, as the long range of Tesla's mean they don't need them dotted everywhere) and would have been pleasantly surprised, even shocked, to find a 6 stall V3 supercharger actually located in Inverness itself. TM3's can take the whole 250kW's at a V3 if the battery is not too full, so at roughly 1,000mph charging speed, 150 miles of range would take approx 9mins.

Maybe he needed to charge in Glasgow too, in the picture, but about 10 miles outside is a 12 stall 150kW supercharger station, and more N, S and E of Glasgow, depending on his route!

Very ..... interesting.

To be fair the article is about the shortcomings of the public charging network in Scotland.  If the writer had used Tesla-only chargers it would reflect the experience of the few people who can afford a £45k plus car, which may not fbe a good fit with the Sunday Post reader demographic.  The comment about the Tesla range could have done with a bit of context/explanation.

Probably not the best place to find a balanced, objective view.
  

QrizB

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

This sentence had me scratching my head:

And if you’re charging at home? Four charges a week, say £11 a charge, is getting dangerously near the cost of running a ... diesel or petrol car.

I've dotted out the bit about build quality etc. as it was the cost argument that had me going "wut?". £44 a week is 293 kWh @ 15p/kWh, enough to drive 1000 miles or so. A diesel Mondeo gets around 60mpg, 13 miles per litre, and a litre of diesel is around £1.30 so that's 10p per mile; 1000 miles would be £100 or more than twice the cost of the electricity for a TM3.

If he's driving 1000 miles a week, his fuel saving over the year is almost £3000.

JKenH

That comment about the 140 miles range surprised me as well, but it appeared to come from a Tesla owner, so there probably is an element of (his) truth in it. Maybe it was cold and pouring with rain and that’s all he got one trip and that worse case situation is how he now plans his journeys. One trip in winter I struggled to get 100 miles from my 40kWh Leaf and that trip sticks in my mind more than the 176 miles I got on a full charge last summer. 

Someone asked me this week what I thought of my Leaf. “Love driving it” I said “but the charging experience is a nightmare”. TBH I don’t have to public charge a lot and for me the upside of running an EV outweighs the downside but if I had to rely on public chargers I would see it differently. If someone is interested enough to ask I will tell them my experiences, honestly, not make out there isn’t a problem with range and charging. I do, though, have to tell them why I like driving my Leaf so much and I am pretty sure I would if I had a Tesla, even if it only would do 140 miles. 

Incidentally, yesterday a good friend told me his son was thinking about leasing a BMW i3 through his business. I said forget the i3, just tell him to get a Tesla. I think the Model 3 is a great car and every time I have to go on a trip that involves charging I wish I had a TM3. I just can’t stand all the fanboys who see everything that is not 100% complimentary as FUD.

silverwhistle

JKenH said:

That comment about the 140 miles range surprised me as well, but it appeared to come from a Tesla owner, so there probably is an element of (his) truth in it.

To what do you ascribe his seeming ignorance about charging possibilities, given that range and the charging are the two main things us non-Tesla drivers envy? To me it seems one of those articles which need a hook and that I take with more than a pinch of salt.

Martyn1981

QrizB said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

This sentence had me scratching my head:

And if you’re charging at home? Four charges a week, say £11 a charge, is getting dangerously near the cost of running a ... diesel or petrol car.

I've dotted out the bit about build quality etc. as it was the cost argument that had me going "wut?". £44 a week is 293 kWh @ 15p/kWh, enough to drive 1000 miles or so. A diesel Mondeo gets around 60mpg, 13 miles per litre, and a litre of diesel is around £1.30 so that's 10p per mile; 1000 miles would be £100 or more than twice the cost of the electricity for a TM3.

If he's driving 1000 miles a week, his fuel saving over the year is almost £3000.

Yep, a load of FUD, these articles pop up every now and then, but often need to be 'searched' for to help spread it as they won't reflect commonsense, nor the truth it seems in this case, regarding the point you raise - 

So what I’m saying is this: electric cars? Still pretty rubbish unless you’re using them locally and charging at home. And if you’re charging at home? Four charges a week, say £11 a charge, is getting dangerously near the cost of running a better built, easier fixed, more comfortable and – get this – quieter to drive – because noise comes from tyre roar and wind not engines of a diesel or petrol car.

The TM3SR+ will have a ~60kWh batt, though only 55 may be available. Assuming charging when mostly empty, then 50kWh, so 22p/kWh. [The LR model is about 75kWh useable, but even a FUDster would struggle to suggest 140 miles.]
If he was talking about paying at chargers, then perhaps 22p, but at home, come on! And then the rest of that para which seems to prove we are dealing with a pro ICEV article, even openly lying about road noise.

Personally, I find articles like these fun, at least at first, but the same old nonsense gets a tad boring after a while. Over the last decade there have been no end of them explaining why PV, doesn't work in the UK, wind turbines can't power the grid, BEV's will crash the grid, and so on. So they give us a chance not only to post the truth, but also to understand why some of the general public talk nonsense about such issues, because they are reading it in the news, and believing it, and ...... sadly .... spreading it on.

Reminds me of an article in the NY Times a couple of years ago, explaining how a long distance return journey will include so, so much charging time:

L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In

Ben Sullins, a NY Times fan, and massively respected for his channel Teslanomics responded by doing the same trip in his TM3 LR. His response was picked up by the BEV news sites, like InsideEVs.

He only charged for 10mins at a supercharger on the way, whilst getting a snack and having a pee, he didn't wait around. He charged overnight whilst in his hotel, and didn't charge at all on the way back.

Now, obviously you could argue that that's just a Tesla, but Ben's issue was why a reporter would choose a car that represents 10% of US sales, rather than a Tesla, representing ~70% of sales, and also claim that most BEV's have a range of 200-250 miles, when Tesla's have an average of 300+, so did 'most' mean an average of the models for sale, not the average of the cars being sold?
He then challenges the choice of a car with a 50kW charging limit, to demonstrate long mileage experiences. If you did lots of long mileage trips, wouldn't you choose a BEV suitable for the purpose, not a niche model.

The best thing about being a fan of RE and BEV's, is being able to correct FUD with reality, but I'll be honest, this recent article seems like something out of the last decade, at best, and rather odd, but FUDsters gotta do, what FUDsters gotta do, so misinformation about BEV's is likely to grow now as their rollout starts to scare some of the population, but just like the anti-wind arguments on the grounds of impact (financial and visual), 10-5yrs ago, they will die out as the rollout expands, and truth prevails.

JKenH

The charging problem is real for most EV drivers if not for those who own a Tesla. In fact it is interesting that a couple of correspondents on this board have moved from other BEVs to Tesla. Why? 

When I got my first BEV I treated a long trip as a bit of a challenge. Being retired, time was on my side. More recently it has become a chore. My own experience is that charging on the motorway and trunk road network has become more problematic. The Ecotricity/Electric Highway chargers are in my, albeit limited, experience more often than not out of order. Having to take a significant detour because your chosen filling station is out of order is not progress and the fact that EVangelists always respond that you should always have a Plan B just demonstrates that the charging network isn’t fit for purpose. If it doesn’t get fixed it will deter people from switching to BEVs or even cause them to switch back. 

In the early days of EV adoption it was enthusiasts running EVs who were prepared to make a 500 mile trip in a 24kWh Leaf. Now it is working people buying/leasing EVs for tax reasons, who are often on tight schedules and just don’t have time to fit in a Plan B. I think we will see more, not less, negative articles about EV charging in future. 

The article below came up a couple of weeks ago on the Electrek website when I was having a holiday from MSE. 

Why some electric car owners return to gas - the reasons aren’t surprising.

https://electrek.co/2021/04/29/study-why-some-electric-car-owners-gas-reasons-surprising/

JKenH

Just a further comment on the poor range the Tesla owner was experiencing. I believe Tesla heat the battery to optimum temperature and in doing so consume part of the battery’s charge. I believe the Tesla also heats the battery prior to a planned charging stop. It may be if a Tesla is used regularly for short trips a significant part of the battery’s charge is consumed just conditioning the battery and would therefore affect overall efficiency and hence range. For people with home chargers this is less of an issue as the battery heating will be from the mains supply and not affect range. 

Edit: someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but I believe regen is limited when the Tesla battery is cold which again affects efficiency, particularly on short trips. 

Also something else to bear in mind when comparing cost per mile with ICEs is that there are charging losses. For every 1000 watts my Zappi charger delivers only 850-900 watts seems to be added to my Leaf battery.