Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

What does "FUD" mean?

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

What does "FUD" mean?

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

From Wikipedia
The abbreviation FUD is also alternatively rendered as "fear, uncertainty, and disinformation”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

 It is now though widely used on this board as a term to discredit any article that challenges the view you wish to see portrayed. Anyone who posts an article you don’t agree with is then labelled a FUDster.

I couldn’t agree more about the TM3LR. Some people are put off by the amount of stuff that is controlled from the touchscreen but the main issue is, perhaps, price. It is still a bit of a new name and there are reported issues with build quality and customer service (which tend to be dismissed as FUD) but the car does everything an electric car should do exceedingly well. On top of that there is the Tesla Supercharger network. It really is difficult to make a convincing argument against it, in my view. 

Edit: I should add to that last sentence “if you are spending £48.5k on a car”. 

My Leaf goes half as far as a TM3LR but then was only half the price. It doesn’t have the performance (that doesn’t bother me as most cars are plenty fast enough for day to day use) but it is a thoroughly enjoyable, quiet and comfortable drive and probably just as economical and maybe cheaper to run. So while I would love a TM3LR I chose something else. 

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

What does "FUD" mean?

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

Hiya, 'fear, uncertainty, doubt', it's used to knock technologies, like RE and BEV's, and Tesla gets an incredible amount of it.
If you search hard enough, and ignore commonsense, then it's easy to find and post on sites like this to disrupt threads. Common ones will be range myths, short battery lives, high insurance costs, high running costs, etc. etc..

Looking at that article in particular, it's pretty obvious that the claims made are not reasonable, and won't stand up to any scrutiny, but ICEV drivers will read it, and it'll help to solidify negative beliefs, through confirmation bias.

Yep the TM3LR should suit, dare I say anyone*, though tbh, the SR+ is more than enough, since it not only has a very long range (around 250mile average in the UK according to Zap Map testing, and around 230mile average by some consumers, though I suspect that excludes the ~15 miles of range that will be available after you reach zero, assuming you have a particularly brave (stupid) constitution (about 25miles in the LR), but for all intents and purposes, guaranteed easy and fast charging for longer routes. I'd suggest that there are now dozens of BEV's available all with more than enough range and charging speed to meet anyone's needs, but, availability of working chargers, and high speed chargers isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.

I only went for the LR, as a 'what the hell', since I thought in for a penny, in for a pound, and for an extra £6.5k at the time, you get more range, a second motor, more power, and AWD. I won't attempt to defend a need for it over the SR+, nor suggest any MSE validity, but, in terms of 'smiles per mile', (a great phrase I was recently introduced too) it's worth every extra penny ...... (*cough* plus the extra 50kW it now has too *cough*).

*I mean this of course in terms of people looking for a vehicle of that shape, and design, even if they drive 400-500miles twice a year**. Not suggesting it's suitable v's a BEV transit van. I actually think the model Y is a much more flexible vehicle for folk, it's really just a TM3 that's been inflated by about 10%, but obviously you don't need 10% more space for motors, batts, passengers etc, so the result is a massive jump in storage space from 1,200lt to about 1,900lt, and more importantly, you get a hatchback opening, rather than the pretty small bootlid on the TM3.

**You'll see this a lot in the comments on BEV articles, "I drive 400 miles to visit old Aunt Pertunia twice a year, so I need a car that can do 400 miles on a tankfull. But well informed pushback is getting stronger and stronger.

Martyn1981

JKenH said:

Edit: someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but I believe regen is limited when the Tesla battery is cold which again affects efficiency, particularly on short trips. 

No Ken, you are correct that when the weather is particularly cold, the Tesla won't be able to run max regen. So on those occassions, until the car has warmed up, regen will be limited to levels akin to those I experienced in Leaf's and the Ioniq, when set to max, and operating in warm weather. The main screen tells you that regen max has been reduced, and when it's back to max.

Of course, that's because even Tesla's 'magic sauce' can't ram all that energy back into the batts in extreme temps, so if you need to decelerate rapidly, then you'll have to reach for the friction brakes, just like 'normal' BEV's do. 
I was recently quite shocked actually driving the Ioniq for the first time in a few months, since even in max regen mode, I was having to use the brake pedal to make 90d turns on urban streets, whereas in the Tesla, friction brakes are only needed for emergency braking, or stoping the car from ~5mph (in 'creep' mode).

Regarding heating a battery before a charger stop, that will depend on whether the battery needs heating or cooling, to allow it take the maximum charge rate. Obviously, BEV's will heat or cool their packs (unless they just have passive cooling) at the start of charging, but doing it on the way, means that the cars forgo the slower charging speeds when they first plug in. Given higher charging rates at Tesla supercharger's v's the majority of chargers available, being able to maximise charging rates, and minimise wait times, benefits all, and even increases the capacity (if not size) of a charging network, as the throughput will rise, without needing to increase the number of chargers available. To activate, you simply choose a supercharger station on the nav screen, and it'll get the battery to optimum temp in the 10-20 mins before you arrive, taking into account the charging rate of that station. Simples.

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

What does "FUD" mean?

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

Hiya, 'fear, uncertainty, doubt', it's used to knock technologies, like RE and BEV's, and Tesla gets an incredible amount of it.
If you search hard enough, and ignore commonsense, then it's easy to find and post on sites like this to disrupt threads. Common ones will be range myths, short battery lives, high insurance costs, high running costs, etc. etc..

Looking at that article in particular, it's pretty obvious that the claims made are not reasonable, and won't stand up to any scrutiny, but ICEV drivers will read it, and it'll help to solidify negative beliefs, through confirmation bias.

Yep the TM3LR should suit, dare I say anyone*, though tbh, the SR+ is more than enough, since it not only has a very long range (around 250mile average in the UK according to Zap Map testing, and around 230mile average by some consumers, though I suspect that excludes the ~15 miles of range that will be available after you reach zero, assuming you have a particularly brave (stupid) constitution (about 25miles in the LR), but for all intents and purposes, guaranteed easy and fast charging for longer routes. I'd suggest that there are now dozens of BEV's available all with more than enough range and charging speed to meet anyone's needs, but, availability of working chargers, and high speed chargers isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.

I only went for the LR, as a 'what the hell', since I thought in for a penny, in for a pound, and for an extra £6.5k at the time, you get more range, a second motor, more power, and AWD. I won't attempt to defend a need for it over the SR+, nor suggest any MSE validity, but, in terms of 'smiles per mile', (a great phrase I was recently introduced too) it's worth every extra penny ...... (*cough* plus the extra 50kW it now has too *cough*).

*I mean this of course in terms of people looking for a vehicle of that shape, and design, even if they drive 400-500miles twice a year**. Not suggesting it's suitable v's a BEV transit van. I actually think the model Y is a much more flexible vehicle for folk, it's really just a TM3 that's been inflated by about 10%, but obviously you don't need 10% more space for motors, batts, passengers etc, so the result is a massive jump in storage space from 1,200lt to about 1,900lt, and more importantly, you get a hatchback opening, rather than the pretty small bootlid on the TM3.

**You'll see this a lot in the comments on BEV articles, "I drive 400 miles to visit old Aunt Pertunia twice a year, so I need a car that can do 400 miles on a tankfull. But well informed pushback is getting stronger and stronger.

But anyone can't afford 50 grand for a car.  EV pounds are the same as ICE pounds and most people don't have that sort of money (or the PCP payments to finance it) .  Teslas are impressive cars but for that sort of money they should be.  Teslas and their owners are easy targets due to their high cost, the fact that they are American/owned by a bit of a nutter and, yes, envy.  It would be a lot harder to knock something that provides a genuine alternative to ICE cars that most people could afford.  Teslas are an easy target.  

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

But anyone can't afford 50 grand for a car.  EV pounds are the same as ICE pounds and most people don't have that sort of money (or the PCP payments to finance it) .  Teslas are impressive cars but for that sort of money they should be.  Teslas and their owners are easy targets due to their high cost, the fact that they are American/owned by a bit of a nutter and, yes, envy.  It would be a lot harder to knock something that provides a genuine alternative to ICE cars that most people could afford.  Teslas are an easy target.  

I'd agree that the £50k is an obstacle, but just driving around and seeing the profile of cars on the road, it is not as big an obstacle as I imagine it to be.

As for affordable EV, the MG5 seems a good option that will meet the need for many, though I'd be nervous with the reduced range versus Tesla.

I do think the TMY could well be the leading EV very soon after release - all the + of the TM3 with the added hatchback versatility.  A normal sized hatchback could possibly do even better as no high-up off-road styling.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

But anyone can't afford 50 grand for a car.  EV pounds are the same as ICE pounds and most people don't have that sort of money (or the PCP payments to finance it) .  Teslas are impressive cars but for that sort of money they should be.  Teslas and their owners are easy targets due to their high cost, the fact that they are American/owned by a bit of a nutter and, yes, envy.  It would be a lot harder to knock something that provides a genuine alternative to ICE cars that most people could afford.  Teslas are an easy target.  

I'd agree that the £50k is an obstacle, but just driving around and seeing the profile of cars on the road, it is not as big an obstacle as I imagine it to be.

As for affordable EV, the MG5 seems a good option that will meet the need for many, though I'd be nervous with the reduced range versus Tesla.

I do think the TMY could well be the leading EV very soon after release - all the + of the TM3 with the added hatchback versatility.  A normal sized hatchback could possibly do even better as no high-up off-road styling.

Just out of interest what would it be about the range of the MG5 that would make you nervous?  

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

That article describes the experience of one user, without at home charging, relying on the public network.  Already a difficult position for an EV owner.  

There is no reason at all given why the TM3 only achieves 140-mile range.  It is far lower than I have seen reported as "real world" elsewhere.

Don't worry, you'll get used to all the FUD that gets spread about Tesla (and the posters that go looking for it).

What does "FUD" mean?

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

Hiya, 'fear, uncertainty, doubt', it's used to knock technologies, like RE and BEV's, and Tesla gets an incredible amount of it.
If you search hard enough, and ignore commonsense, then it's easy to find and post on sites like this to disrupt threads. Common ones will be range myths, short battery lives, high insurance costs, high running costs, etc. etc..

Looking at that article in particular, it's pretty obvious that the claims made are not reasonable, and won't stand up to any scrutiny, but ICEV drivers will read it, and it'll help to solidify negative beliefs, through confirmation bias.

Yep the TM3LR should suit, dare I say anyone*, though tbh, the SR+ is more than enough, since it not only has a very long range (around 250mile average in the UK according to Zap Map testing, and around 230mile average by some consumers, though I suspect that excludes the ~15 miles of range that will be available after you reach zero, assuming you have a particularly brave (stupid) constitution (about 25miles in the LR), but for all intents and purposes, guaranteed easy and fast charging for longer routes. I'd suggest that there are now dozens of BEV's available all with more than enough range and charging speed to meet anyone's needs, but, availability of working chargers, and high speed chargers isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.

I only went for the LR, as a 'what the hell', since I thought in for a penny, in for a pound, and for an extra £6.5k at the time, you get more range, a second motor, more power, and AWD. I won't attempt to defend a need for it over the SR+, nor suggest any MSE validity, but, in terms of 'smiles per mile', (a great phrase I was recently introduced too) it's worth every extra penny ...... (*cough* plus the extra 50kW it now has too *cough*).

*I mean this of course in terms of people looking for a vehicle of that shape, and design, even if they drive 400-500miles twice a year**. Not suggesting it's suitable v's a BEV transit van. I actually think the model Y is a much more flexible vehicle for folk, it's really just a TM3 that's been inflated by about 10%, but obviously you don't need 10% more space for motors, batts, passengers etc, so the result is a massive jump in storage space from 1,200lt to about 1,900lt, and more importantly, you get a hatchback opening, rather than the pretty small bootlid on the TM3.

**You'll see this a lot in the comments on BEV articles, "I drive 400 miles to visit old Aunt Pertunia twice a year, so I need a car that can do 400 miles on a tankfull. But well informed pushback is getting stronger and stronger.

But anyone can't afford 50 grand for a car.  EV pounds are the same as ICE pounds and most people don't have that sort of money (or the PCP payments to finance it) .  Teslas are impressive cars but for that sort of money they should be.  Teslas and their owners are easy targets due to their high cost, the fact that they are American/owned by a bit of a nutter and, yes, envy.  It would be a lot harder to knock something that provides a genuine alternative to ICE cars that most people could afford.  Teslas are an easy target.  

I think you may have missed the context. The statement was:

From where I sit, there seem to be very few reasons that a TM3LR would not suit the majority of people as a practical option (assuming initial cost is satisfied).

And I agreed, but pointed out that the SR+ would be fine.
Of course we can discuss purchase cost v's an ICEV, or lease cost v's an ICEV, or the lower TCO of a BEV (if you do enough miles pa), or the lower lease + running cost of the BEV (if you do enough miles pa). But I read Grumpy_Chap's comment to be cost aside, and discussing whether the TM3 (but I'd say also many other, cheaper, but long range BEV's) would meet the needs of the majority of drivers. I even added a caveat, to say I was discussing suitability regarding range, charging etc, not suitability for any specific task, such as my mention of a BEV transit van. Obviously cost concerns and smaller mileage, would suggest a different BEV, and there are some corkers out there. Silverwhistle has an excellent example, and didn't 'waste'  money on a mid life crisis, boy's toy, like me, but then I've never been the smart one.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

shinytop said:

But anyone can't afford 50 grand for a car.  EV pounds are the same as ICE pounds and most people don't have that sort of money (or the PCP payments to finance it) .  Teslas are impressive cars but for that sort of money they should be.  Teslas and their owners are easy targets due to their high cost, the fact that they are American/owned by a bit of a nutter and, yes, envy.  It would be a lot harder to knock something that provides a genuine alternative to ICE cars that most people could afford.  Teslas are an easy target.  

I'd agree that the £50k is an obstacle, but just driving around and seeing the profile of cars on the road, it is not as big an obstacle as I imagine it to be.

As for affordable EV, the MG5 seems a good option that will meet the need for many, though I'd be nervous with the reduced range versus Tesla.

I do think the TMY could well be the leading EV very soon after release - all the + of the TM3 with the added hatchback versatility.  A normal sized hatchback could possibly do even better as no high-up off-road styling.

I should have read your response first, sorry for repeating it.
Regarding the TMY, and reading between the lines regarding best selling car by revenue in 2022, and possibly volume in 2023, the Tesla community is thinking around 1m TMY's in 2023, or similar. Have to admit that that sounds nuts today, but we are talking about Elon, who suggested Tesla would hit 500k sales in 2020 .... back in 2014 when the TMX was launching.
I don't know how prices will compare in Europe v's the TM3, as you can't order in the UK, but elsewhere in Europe prices seem quite a bit steeper. But, Sandy Munro believes the TMY is cheaper to build than the TM3, then you have to add on further savings now that they are to use a 'Gigapress'* to produce rear (and possibly front) sections for the Y in Germany, eliminating 100's of components, and the work stations to assemble them, and on top there won't be import taxes, such as those from the US or China (though there might be for us).
Put it all together and the car may be cheaper, but of course that doesn't mean it will be priced cheaper.
The TM2, or TM$25k, or whatever they decide to call the smaller model that's coming, should be an absolute sales monster.

*The Gigapress is an incredible machine, producing whole castings in 20 milliseconds. Sandy Munro explained that the break even point for investing in these, is probably 100,000 vehicles pa. He also discussed metallurgy with Elon, as Tesla had to develop the right type of aluminium to make this work as it has to be shot into the mold at extreme speed - and they both agreed that it's a crucial science for making better cars. So much fun, so much I could waffle on about. Sorry.

Martyn1981

I think this is really eye opening, it's saying that BEV's are safer than ICEV's, well we all know that already, but even the BEV version of a car that can also be bought as an ICEV, is far safer - so if you don't want to save money, nor the planet, how about saving your family? [That was a joke, well mostly.]

Injury Claims From Electric Vehicle Owners 40% Lower Than Identical Non-Electric Models

With regards to 2011–2019 models that are available both as electric and as gasoline-powered vehicles, the analysis found that drivers and passengers of the electric versions were 40% less likely to report injury claims. 40% less likely is a huge difference.