Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

I've never found them down as I'm not an idiot and check zapmap and /or the charge your car app to see if there are reported issues and if they are currently being used.

BTW occasionally the chargeplace Scotland card doesn't work, and sometimes you have to phone the English offices, but I've never been on the phone more than 5 mins, so that 16 min wait is just tosh

But isn’t this the problem? EV users shouldn’t have to be checking ahead to see if a charger is working - you don’t have to do that in a petrol car. You shouldn’t have to spend 5 minutes on a phone before you can charge -  I’ve never had to do that in an ICE vehicle. If you are planning a motorway trip, stopping 100 miles down the road for a charge, just what is the point in checking before you set off if the charger is occupied? It may be free then but not by the time you get there. Even if you only want to check if it is working ZapMap cannot be relied upon. Not everybody who finds an out of order charger reports it. It is so routine on the motorway network that it is just a fact of life. 

It doesn’t really matter if your local free supermarket charger isn’t working, it’s a bonus if you do get a charge but it is a different story for those who drive up and down our motorways.

I just don’t understand why there is such a negative reaction to any article highlighting the shortcomings in the charging network and how it needs to improve. Maybe everyone on here is just smug because they have a home charger and rarely need to use the public charging network so have no real idea of the actual problems out there, particularly on English motorways. 

What you and others seem to be suggesting is we dismiss the problems of EV charging (calling it FUD) because it might put some people off making the switch. Surely it is better to get the problems out in the open so our politicians get something done about it.

Finally, please remember this is an MSE forum where people want practical honest advice and open discussion not just blinkered idealists recommending products and services purely on the basis of their own ethical principles and seeking to hide any shortcomings even in the face of overwhelming complaints. 

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

He mentioned chargeplace Scotland,  and thats who I tend to use, it's strange he talks about cost, since the Glasgow chargeplace Scotland chargers are all free.... even the rapid ones I've used.

What the article actually says about Glasgow charging fees is “ The decision by Highland Council echoes recent moves by Glasgow City Council, which this month brought in charges for its public network.”

This appears to be confirmed by the article below.

Fees for electric vehicle charging points get council approval

NEW fees for using electric vehicle charging points in Glasgow will be introduced from May.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19222946.fees-agreed-charging-points/

So just to be crystal clear, he talked about the cost now, not in the future, now.
And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free


And as Scott says, even without a card, you can use the app to start a charge, which is what I've done in the past before getting a card, and also if its raining, and I want to make sure the process will go smoothly.

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.
The good thing about chargers, especially in central Scotland,  is that they are so prolific you only need to go a street or two away from that charger to find another. 

I 100% refute the suggestion that I am dismissing the problems occasionally faced when charging, what I am saying is they are miniscule and minor inconveniences and nothing more.
You are the one making out they are catastrophic which is just nonsense.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As for your last paragraph,  what a load of pontificating garbage.
1 article based on demonstrable falsehoods all the way through is certainly not what I'd call overwhelming,  id call it what it is, FUD!

I do agree with your sentiment though, it's the mse forum, let's not fill it with blinkered rubbish 👍

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Plug in. Pay out. Give up? 

The real range on my Tesla Model 3 with some motorway driving? Probably nearer 140 miles a fill. 

https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/plug-in-pay-out-give-updrivers-say-cost-is-the-biggest-barrier-to-opting-for-a-zero-emissions-car/

He mentioned chargeplace Scotland,  and thats who I tend to use, it's strange he talks about cost, since the Glasgow chargeplace Scotland chargers are all free.... even the rapid ones I've used.

What the article actually says about Glasgow charging fees is “ The decision by Highland Council echoes recent moves by Glasgow City Council, which this month brought in charges for its public network.”

This appears to be confirmed by the article below.

Fees for electric vehicle charging points get council approval

NEW fees for using electric vehicle charging points in Glasgow will be introduced from May.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19222946.fees-agreed-charging-points/

I 100% refute the suggestion that I am dismissing the problems occasionally faced when charging, what I am saying is they are miniscule and minor inconveniences and nothing more.
You are the one making out they are catastrophic which is just nonsense.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

I am not talking about the charging in my local area as I never need to use a local charger. The issue for me is motorways and trunk roads, now, not 2 years ago when there were far fewer EVs in the road and the Ecotricity network wasn’t so do eared. 

I regularly travel from home to Leamington Spa and my normal route is via A46, M1 and M69 then A46. I have just spent a while checking the status of charging points on two alternative routes as currently shown on ZapMap. The chargers en route ignoring those within 10 miles of home have their most recent status shown as follows.

Shell, Newark, one device CCS available, Chademo out of order.

There are two chargers on the A46 at Saxondale services accessed by slip road and roundabout. One is currently out of order and a successful charge was recorded on the other 1 month ago. (Last time I stopped to charge here both were out of order but nothing showing on Zap Map. There is no type 2 device there.)

The next stop down is Leicester Forest south bound on the M1. One device, both CCS and Chademo is out of order and the second charger is shown as available, 3 weeks ago for Chademo and 1 week ago for CCS. Both 22kw type 2s are out of service. On the Northbound carriageway. CCS chargers show as out of service on ZapMap. The 22kw type 2 charger is out of service so older Zoe’s would by now be struggling. 

There are no chargers on the M69. There is one more charger reasonably accessible at Morrison’s on a retail park off the A46. There is just one device and it was available.

If I go a longer route via M180, M18 and M1 down to Leicester Forest services I can stop at 

Doncaster North services. One device, Chademo working 6 days ago CCS not working. 

Woodhall South Services M1, (southbound) one device working, one device not (both CCSand Chademo)

(Northbound)Both devices working between 1 week and 4 months ago.

Tibshelf services (southbound)on M1 one device, both CCS and Chademo working

(Northbound)One device, Chademo working, CCS not working.

Trowell services M1

Southbound

Device 1 type 2 available, Chademo out of service 2 weeks ago

Device 2 Chademo available 3 months ago, CCS out of service yesterday.

Northbound

Both devices available between 2 days and 4 months ago. 

Donington Park services

Both devices out of order, one six days ago, one yesterday.

So if I have counted correctly over the 2 routes  59% (22 chargers)were working and 41% (15) not working. The split is CCS 10  working and 8 not. Chademo 12 working 7 not.

Now whatever you may think I do not consider that fit for purpose. 

Martyn1981

Article looking at how Europe may progress (or will need to) to transition to ~100% BEV sales, then ~100% BEV fleet.

Hitting The EV Inflection Point In Europe

Can the entire EU go to 100% electric car and van sales by 2035 in order to decarbonize road transport by 2050? Can a small business as well as an average family, whether living in a city or a village, make the switch? T&E has commissioned Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) to analyse exactly this. The answer is clear: yes — with the right policy support — Europe can. Download the full BNEF study here (2.7 MB), as well as our briefing on the results and what they mean for EU policymakers (1.1 MB).

Grumpy_chap

Solarchaser said:

And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As I understand it, the free charging points provided by Local Authorities are rapidly diminishing.  I actually agree with that.  Free electricity was something done to promote take-up of EVs but there seems to be no more reason why an EV owner should receive free fuel from the Council than an ICE owner should receive free petrol / diesel.

Some of the charge point schemes also seem prohibitively expensive and I see no reason why that should be either.  I don't yet have an EV, but at my pre-COVID workplace, the charging cost was 32p/kWh plus penalty £20/half-hour if you stay on the point once full.  At that rate, running cost for energy is as high as an ICE.

Availability of charging point en-route (separate issue to charging time and charging cost) is a factor that will influence take-up of EV's.  With improved ranges, en-route charging can be minimised but will still be necessary on occasion. 

I am far from Scotland, but the motorway services where I stop most frequently has a whole bank of Tesla chargers far away from the buildings and I cannot recall seeing these all fully occupied.  I have also seen the Tesla app for "booking" charge-space and that seems quite well-developed but does rely on Tesla owners behaving like a community with a common interest.  Can that collective spirit be maintained once the take-up increases beyond the keen?

The same motorway services has a couple of chargers for other EV's, located right next to the buildings.  I can't comment on whether these charges work well, but I can say that I have often seen ICE vehicles stopped in the locations so an EV driver could not charge if they wanted to.  This is a real, observed obstacle.

One positive about charge times is that it forces the driver to stop and rest every 200-miles or so, that must be a good thing for safety.

Solarchaser

So I think you make some good points there, and most of that, I have no idea where you are talking about.
Seems like you have a particularly poor network that you want to use.

I took your first that you said shell Newark and searched it, as of a week ago the chademo is reported at faulty as you said ringed orange, there is also another reporting a fault as of a couple of minutes ago however there are 3 other chademo chargers reporting no faults in Newark 


Trowell services unknown southbound, but working northbound.
Ecotricity says they are working southbound

Same with Leicester forest.
Though ecotricity reports it as working, with only 1 down.

Would it be better if all were working, sure, but its hardly leaving you stranded if the ones across the way are working.

As before, surely before starting your journey you would check with Shell, ecotricity, BP or whoever chargers you were planning on using, that they were up.
Especially as you have stated you find zap map no use??

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

So I think you make some good points there, and most of that, I have no idea where you are talking about.
Seems like you have a particularly poor network that you want to use.

I took your first that you said shell Newark and searched it, as of a week ago the chademo is reported at faulty as you said ringed orange, there is also another reporting a fault as of a couple of minutes ago however there are 3 other chademo chargers reporting no faults in Newark 


Trowell services unknown southbound, but working northbound.
Ecotricity says they are working southbound

Same with Leicester forest.
Though ecotricity reports it as working, with only 1 down.

Would it be better if all were working, sure, but its hardly leaving you stranded if the ones across the way are working.

As before, surely before starting your journey you would check with Shell, ecotricity, BP or whoever chargers you were planning on using, that they were up.
Especially as you have stated you find zap map no use??

Thank you for your measured response. On the issue of going into Newark it can be congested and on a good day would add several minutes to your journey without the stop for charging. Yes it is possible to find numerous alternative charging points along the way that involve detours but that just adds inconvenience and delay. As yet I haven’t been in danger of running out because there wasn’t a charging point available but once I spent half an hour on a detour trying to find a particularly awkwardly located charger in a pub car park that involved going twice round a one way system to locate an entrance through an archway. 

In the exercise I did today I included chargers that were reasonably accessible from my intended route such as a retail park directly accessed from a roundabout on the route but driving into towns just to find a charger just adds too much inconvenience unless one is desperate. If the motorway charging network was adequate this would not be necessary. 

You don’t expect to turn up at a motorway fuel station and not be able to fill up because only one pump is working and the owner of the vehicle parked at that  pump has wandered off for a coffee but that is exactly what  EV drivers wanting to charge have to put up with, if indeed there is a charger working at all. Quite simply there just aren’t enough working chargers on motorways. 

You comment that it is a particularly poor network I want to use but there is no choice; Ecotricity is currently the only network on the main route from London to the North - the M1, hardly some B road in rural Lincolnshire. If you are lucky there are two chargers each carriageway but where the services cater for traffic in both directions , e.g Donington Park you still only get 2. The junction of the M18 and M180 motorways has just one charger for both motorways. 

It should not be necessary for EV drivers who are making a long journey to have to leave the motorway network to get a charge but with an increasing number of EVs and a static number of charging points the chances of being able to charge are falling all the time. Yes, you may argue, you can plan ahead but there is no way of checking there will be a charger free at your chosen stop when you get there. 

If EVs are to take off then we have to make charging as easy as it is for ICEVs. No excuses, no requirement to compromise. It is bad enough having to stop 2 or 3 times more frequently than an ICEV and take much longer to charge so why make it any more difficult?

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As I understand it, the free charging points provided by Local Authorities are rapidly diminishing.  I actually agree with that.  Free electricity was something done to promote take-up of EVs but there seems to be no more reason why an EV owner should receive free fuel from the Council than an ICE owner should receive free petrol / diesel.

Some of the charge point schemes also seem prohibitively expensive and I see no reason why that should be either.  I don't yet have an EV, but at my pre-COVID workplace, the charging cost was 32p/kWh plus penalty £20/half-hour if you stay on the point once full.  At that rate, running cost for energy is as high as an ICE.

Availability of charging point en-route (separate issue to charging time and charging cost) is a factor that will influence take-up of EV's.  With improved ranges, en-route charging can be minimised but will still be necessary on occasion. 

I am far from Scotland, but the motorway services where I stop most frequently has a whole bank of Tesla chargers far away from the buildings and I cannot recall seeing these all fully occupied.  I have also seen the Tesla app for "booking" charge-space and that seems quite well-developed but does rely on Tesla owners behaving like a community with a common interest.  Can that collective spirit be maintained once the take-up increases beyond the keen?

The same motorway services has a couple of chargers for other EV's, located right next to the buildings.  I can't comment on whether these charges work well, but I can say that I have often seen ICE vehicles stopped in the locations so an EV driver could not charge if they wanted to.  This is a real, observed obstacle.

One positive about charge times is that it forces the driver to stop and rest every 200-miles or so, that must be a good thing for safety.

I agree with you about free charging. It should be ended as it is commonly abused. Taxi drivers were noted for leaving their cars for hours at a time on a retail park next to a housing estate denying anyone who needed a charge that option. 

I also believe charging points should be in less convenient locations. Too near the facilities and they will be ICE’d. 

I am actually amazed that companies make money from their chargers given the installation cost and amount of time they are out of service so do not begrudge 30p/hour at a rapid on a motorway. It is expensive though for those  without home charging so some accommodation needs to be made for longer term public charging closer to cost.

I’m not familiar with the Tesla bulking scheme but I hope it works better than the Caravan Club scheme a few years back which enabled members at the start of the season to book slots at multiple locations for the same time period, leaving them with the option of choosing their destination at the last minute and denying others the opportunity to plan their holidays. 

Don’t let my comments put you off an EV - I love mine but go in with your eyes open.

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As I understand it, the free charging points provided by Local Authorities are rapidly diminishing.  I actually agree with that.  Free electricity was something done to promote take-up of EVs but there seems to be no more reason why an EV owner should receive free fuel from the Council than an ICE owner should receive free petrol / diesel.

Some of the charge point schemes also seem prohibitively expensive and I see no reason why that should be either.  I don't yet have an EV, but at my pre-COVID workplace, the charging cost was 32p/kWh plus penalty £20/half-hour if you stay on the point once full.  At that rate, running cost for energy is as high as an ICE.

Availability of charging point en-route (separate issue to charging time and charging cost) is a factor that will influence take-up of EV's.  With improved ranges, en-route charging can be minimised but will still be necessary on occasion. 

I am far from Scotland, but the motorway services where I stop most frequently has a whole bank of Tesla chargers far away from the buildings and I cannot recall seeing these all fully occupied.  I have also seen the Tesla app for "booking" charge-space and that seems quite well-developed but does rely on Tesla owners behaving like a community with a common interest.  Can that collective spirit be maintained once the take-up increases beyond the keen?

The same motorway services has a couple of chargers for other EV's, located right next to the buildings.  I can't comment on whether these charges work well, but I can say that I have often seen ICE vehicles stopped in the locations so an EV driver could not charge if they wanted to.  This is a real, observed obstacle.

One positive about charge times is that it forces the driver to stop and rest every 200-miles or so, that must be a good thing for safety.

I agree with you about free charging. It should be ended as it is commonly abused. Taxi drivers were noted for leaving their cars for hours at a time on a retail park next to a housing estate denying anyone who needed a charge that option. 

I also believe charging points should be in less convenient locations. Too near the facilities and they will be ICE’d. 

I am actually amazed that companies make money from their chargers given the installation cost and amount of time they are out of service so do not begrudge 30p/hour at a rapid on a motorway. It is expensive though for those  without home charging so some accommodation needs to be made for longer term public charging closer to cost.

I’m not familiar with the Tesla bulking scheme but I hope it works better than the Caravan Club scheme a few years back which enabled members at the start of the season to book slots at multiple locations for the same time period, leaving them with the option of choosing their destination at the last minute and denying others the opportunity to plan their holidays. 

Don’t let my comments put you off an EV - I love mine but go in with your eyes open.

I think as an ev driver we probably all have similar stories about trying to find a charger that's not where it's meant to be on a map, I spent 45mins on 6 miles left in Sunderland trying to find a charger that was a mile away from the zap map pin.
Who's fault was that, definitely zap map, but also mine, when I read the comments from zapmap users there were several comments saying it wasn't where it was supposed to be.
Lesson learned there!

It's bloody annoying,  however as someone who drives as part of my job to places I haven't necessarily been before, I can't tell you the amount of times that the merc sat nav and Google maps have told me there is a petrol station somewhere, only go find there is no such thing. Don't even get me started on apple maps🤬

Really when you drill down, what's the main problem? It's the lack of range on current EV's meaning many more stops than you would expect on an ice car.

300mile range, grand, that's where ice cars were 15-20 years ago, and for me, that's the sweet spot, as I can do 300 miles in a day working. 
Which is why I'm delighted to be getting a long range tesla 3 as my company car in the next couple of weeks.

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

If you don't have them in your area, or where you travel to.... that really is a political issue,  and while England continues to vote in a party with no interest in climate change, who keeps cutting grants etc, I think that will continue to be an issue. 

The ev charger network is definitely not perfect, but from the proper North, I dont recognise the multitude of issues that you are seeing.

Perhaps time to petition your council 🤷‍♂️

michaels

Thing is motorway services would probably the most financially viable location for chargers but we went early eight ecotricty deal and they were too small and underfunded to actually take advantage of their monopoly status so we very quickly went from the fast lane to the slow lane, the only winners were Tesla.