Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

EricMears

JKenH said:

. . . .  You don’t expect to turn up at a motorway fuel station and not be able to fill up because only one pump is working and the owner of the vehicle parked at that  pump has wandered off for a coffee but that is exactly what  EV drivers wanting to charge have to put up with, if indeed there is a charger working at all. Quite simply there just aren’t enough working chargers on motorways. . . .

That seems to be implying that if you're charging your EV you ought to stay with it !

Absolutely no reason why you shouldn't start charging then go for a coffee &/or make room for next in the first 15mins of what you expect to be a 45min process.

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As I understand it, the free charging points provided by Local Authorities are rapidly diminishing.  I actually agree with that.  Free electricity was something done to promote take-up of EVs but there seems to be no more reason why an EV owner should receive free fuel from the Council than an ICE owner should receive free petrol / diesel.

Some of the charge point schemes also seem prohibitively expensive and I see no reason why that should be either.  I don't yet have an EV, but at my pre-COVID workplace, the charging cost was 32p/kWh plus penalty £20/half-hour if you stay on the point once full.  At that rate, running cost for energy is as high as an ICE.

Availability of charging point en-route (separate issue to charging time and charging cost) is a factor that will influence take-up of EV's.  With improved ranges, en-route charging can be minimised but will still be necessary on occasion. 

I am far from Scotland, but the motorway services where I stop most frequently has a whole bank of Tesla chargers far away from the buildings and I cannot recall seeing these all fully occupied.  I have also seen the Tesla app for "booking" charge-space and that seems quite well-developed but does rely on Tesla owners behaving like a community with a common interest.  Can that collective spirit be maintained once the take-up increases beyond the keen?

The same motorway services has a couple of chargers for other EV's, located right next to the buildings.  I can't comment on whether these charges work well, but I can say that I have often seen ICE vehicles stopped in the locations so an EV driver could not charge if they wanted to.  This is a real, observed obstacle.

One positive about charge times is that it forces the driver to stop and rest every 200-miles or so, that must be a good thing for safety.

I agree with you about free charging. It should be ended as it is commonly abused. Taxi drivers were noted for leaving their cars for hours at a time on a retail park next to a housing estate denying anyone who needed a charge that option. 

I also believe charging points should be in less convenient locations. Too near the facilities and they will be ICE’d. 

I am actually amazed that companies make money from their chargers given the installation cost and amount of time they are out of service so do not begrudge 30p/hour at a rapid on a motorway. It is expensive though for those  without home charging so some accommodation needs to be made for longer term public charging closer to cost.

I’m not familiar with the Tesla bulking scheme but I hope it works better than the Caravan Club scheme a few years back which enabled members at the start of the season to book slots at multiple locations for the same time period, leaving them with the option of choosing their destination at the last minute and denying others the opportunity to plan their holidays. 

Don’t let my comments put you off an EV - I love mine but go in with your eyes open.

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

JKenH

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

. . . .  You don’t expect to turn up at a motorway fuel station and not be able to fill up because only one pump is working and the owner of the vehicle parked at that  pump has wandered off for a coffee but that is exactly what  EV drivers wanting to charge have to put up with, if indeed there is a charger working at all. Quite simply there just aren’t enough working chargers on motorways. . . .

That seems to be implying that if you're charging your EV you ought to stay with it !

Absolutely no reason why you shouldn't start charging then go for a coffee &/or make room for next in the first 15mins of what you expect to be a 45min process.

That wasn’t quite what I was implying. As an EV driver one might have to wait helplessly for 45 minutes, just as one would if an ICEv driver abandoned his vehicle at the pumps to go for a coffee. It doesn’t really matter what the EV driver is doing. 

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

JKenH said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

And according to the charge your car app, all Glasgow chargers including the 50kw ccs and chademo are still free

I have never claimed the charging network is perfect, nor have I claimed I've never arrived at a charger to find for one reason or another that I can't get a charge.
Just like sometimes you turn up at a petrol station and either, the pumps are out of petrol/diesel or the forecourt is shut due to refilling the tanks, or even a power cut.

2 years ago I did over 1000 miles in my 24kw leaf throughout England, and never found an issue with the ecotricity chargers(or any charger come to that), every single one was Bob on. You have a problem that you are in a poorly populated area by charger penetration and just assume everyone else is the same.

As I understand it, the free charging points provided by Local Authorities are rapidly diminishing.  I actually agree with that.  Free electricity was something done to promote take-up of EVs but there seems to be no more reason why an EV owner should receive free fuel from the Council than an ICE owner should receive free petrol / diesel.

Some of the charge point schemes also seem prohibitively expensive and I see no reason why that should be either.  I don't yet have an EV, but at my pre-COVID workplace, the charging cost was 32p/kWh plus penalty £20/half-hour if you stay on the point once full.  At that rate, running cost for energy is as high as an ICE.

Availability of charging point en-route (separate issue to charging time and charging cost) is a factor that will influence take-up of EV's.  With improved ranges, en-route charging can be minimised but will still be necessary on occasion. 

I am far from Scotland, but the motorway services where I stop most frequently has a whole bank of Tesla chargers far away from the buildings and I cannot recall seeing these all fully occupied.  I have also seen the Tesla app for "booking" charge-space and that seems quite well-developed but does rely on Tesla owners behaving like a community with a common interest.  Can that collective spirit be maintained once the take-up increases beyond the keen?

The same motorway services has a couple of chargers for other EV's, located right next to the buildings.  I can't comment on whether these charges work well, but I can say that I have often seen ICE vehicles stopped in the locations so an EV driver could not charge if they wanted to.  This is a real, observed obstacle.

One positive about charge times is that it forces the driver to stop and rest every 200-miles or so, that must be a good thing for safety.

I agree with you about free charging. It should be ended as it is commonly abused. Taxi drivers were noted for leaving their cars for hours at a time on a retail park next to a housing estate denying anyone who needed a charge that option. 

I also believe charging points should be in less convenient locations. Too near the facilities and they will be ICE’d. 

I am actually amazed that companies make money from their chargers given the installation cost and amount of time they are out of service so do not begrudge 30p/hour at a rapid on a motorway. It is expensive though for those  without home charging so some accommodation needs to be made for longer term public charging closer to cost.

I’m not familiar with the Tesla bulking scheme but I hope it works better than the Caravan Club scheme a few years back which enabled members at the start of the season to book slots at multiple locations for the same time period, leaving them with the option of choosing their destination at the last minute and denying others the opportunity to plan their holidays. 

Don’t let my comments put you off an EV - I love mine but go in with your eyes open.

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

This is from department of transport from July 2020

EricMears

JKenH said:

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

. . . .  You don’t expect to turn up at a motorway fuel station and not be able to fill up because only one pump is working and the owner of the vehicle parked at that  pump has wandered off for a coffee but that is exactly what  EV drivers wanting to charge have to put up with, if indeed there is a charger working at all. Quite simply there just aren’t enough working chargers on motorways. . . .

That seems to be implying that if you're charging your EV you ought to stay with it !

Absolutely no reason why you shouldn't start charging then go for a coffee &/or make room for next in the first 15mins of what you expect to be a 45min process.

That wasn’t quite what I was implying. As an EV driver one might have to wait helplessly for 45 minutes, just as one would if an ICEv driver abandoned his vehicle at the pumps to go for a coffee. It doesn’t really matter what the EV driver is doing. 

It doesn't of course usually take 45mins to refuel an ICEV.  I have however often had to wait behind another car at a petrol pump whilst the driver in front picks up a loaf of bread, bottle of milk, selection of sweets and browses magazines then queues up to pay for it all.   Thankfully not for 45mins but 10mins isn't unheard of.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

Does that table prove that Scotland has the best penetration of chargers, or the lowest penetration of EV's?
That penetration rate could be achieved with 10 EV's and only three chargers?  Scotland is a massive geographical area to only have three chargers.  Which brings me to the point that the figure is possibly meaningless as the large geographical area and low population density means that there will need to be more chargers per head than a more densely populated area.

Solarchaser

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

Does that table prove that Scotland has the best penetration of chargers, or the lowest penetration of EV's?
That penetration rate could be achieved with 10 EV's and only three chargers?  Scotland is a massive geographical area to only have three chargers.  Which brings me to the point that the figure is possibly meaningless as the large geographical area and low population density means that there will need to be more chargers per head than a more densely populated area.

Which is why my graphs of chargers per 100k of people is arguably more relevant.

Scotland has more rapid chargers per head than the rest of the UK, but less normal chargers per head than London 

Grumpy_chap

Solarchaser said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

Does that table prove that Scotland has the best penetration of chargers, or the lowest penetration of EV's?
That penetration rate could be achieved with 10 EV's and only three chargers?  Scotland is a massive geographical area to only have three chargers.  Which brings me to the point that the figure is possibly meaningless as the large geographical area and low population density means that there will need to be more chargers per head than a more densely populated area.

Which is why my graphs of chargers per 100k of people is arguably more relevant.

Scotland has more rapid chargers per head than the rest of the UK, but less normal chargers per head than London 

Maybe charges per mile of public highway would be more of an indicator?

EVandPV

Solarchaser said:

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

And hey, maybe after a couple of months of having to public charge, I'll be just as peeved as you Ken, but I doubt it, and I'll tell you why, because outside of London, Scotland has the best penetration of chargers.

No wonder you Scots are so smug.


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/uk-region-electric-car-charging-points/

Does that table prove that Scotland has the best penetration of chargers, or the lowest penetration of EV's?
That penetration rate could be achieved with 10 EV's and only three chargers?  Scotland is a massive geographical area to only have three chargers.  Which brings me to the point that the figure is possibly meaningless as the large geographical area and low population density means that there will need to be more chargers per head than a more densely populated area.

Which is why my graphs of chargers per 100k of people is arguably more relevant.

Scotland has more rapid chargers per head than the rest of the UK, but less normal chargers per head than London 

Just over 7000 EV's in Scotland so at 3.32 EV's per charger, that would suggest around 2100 chargers.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/scotland-joins-the-charge-for-electric-vehicles-3155218

Martyn1981

Thinking out loud, I suppose going bust and building nothing, would make a company carbon neutral!

So, Toyota has announced that 2m of its vehicles sold each year will be BEV's or HFC's by 2030. I'll suggest that the number will be much, much higher, or much much lower (zero).

Toyota's Path to Carbon Neutrality

-- Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) will make up 15% of U.S. sales by 2030
-- Electrified vehicles including BEVs will make up 70% of U.S. sales by 2030
-- Global sales of approximately 8M electrified vehicles by 2030 of which 2M will be BEVs and FCEVs.

At Toyota, we believe giving consumers choices with a portfolio of alternative powertrains can help bridge to an all-electric mobility future. The company's approach seeks steady and substantial carbon reductions every year until the recharging infrastructure and costs of BEVs make them an attractive, affordable choice for all consumers everywhere.

Or perhaps a bridge to a small minority 'all-electric mobility future' in 2030.
But on the plus side, about 4yrs ago Toyota suggested they would be building 5.5m electrified vehicles pa by 2030, so maybe, just maybe, someone is slowly explaining to Mr Toyoda how 'it will be'.