Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

My next car may be an EV and the one after that probably will be.  But I want to go into it with my eyes open and some constructive debate covering a range of views - positives and negatives -  would help me a lot. I hope I can get that from this forum.

Fingers crossed you will.
Hopefully we will see the national charging infrastructure improve, and ideally at a faster rate than BEV's are deployed, or it'll get worse as an experience, even if it is technically growing.
Lots of people on here with sensible BEV's, which I genuinely believe offer great value, especially for drivers who do more mileage, but it seems learning about charging networks, and their reliability, or not, is currently necessary.
I wholeheartedly believe that there is now a BEV for everyone (everyone that wants to get one), if we include the secondhand market, and owners are willing to wait for charging on occassions, if travelling longer distances.
But .... we also have to consider green issues, tis that board after all, so even if the pros and cons come out balanced or slightly in favour of an ICE or PHEV, then I think local and national/global emissions should come into the thought process.

I think we should all be fans of companies doing the right thing. Toyota was the first (plus Honda Insight) with their excellent HEV's then PHEV's. Then Nissan and Renault with high(er) production number BEV's. Obviously Tesla for their vehicles, but also for scaring the competition into acting far sooner than they really wanted. Then comes VWG, who are moving extremely fast not just towards BEV's but also dropping investment and R&D in ICEV's soon (even sooner for PSA). Sadly, having opened the door to BEV's by proving the battery and motor technology, Toyota have stalled, or even done worse, by campaigning against BEV's, arguing for cleaner ICE's, fighting the higher fleet emissions targets in the US, and launching campaigns such as 'self charging hybrid' or 'we choose not to plug in' - but that'll change soon as investors put more and more pressure on the board and the ageing Mr Toyoda.

I'd suggest that however good the news is today, tomorrow it will be even better, BEV's are now unstoppable and gaining momentum.
Just some thoughts.


Edit - Sorry, meant to address the fake/FUD issue.
I don't think they are the same. Fake news is just a term for something you don't like, but can't put a coherent argument against it, so simply dismiss it.
FUD is a more serious beast, it's the publishing and spreading of false information, in order to mislead people, and/or create fear, uncertainty, doubt.

You mention you may want to get an EV, but want to go into it with your eyes open, and that's tricky with BEV's as the amount of FUD out there is horrific. In the case of 'that' article, you would have been seriously misinformed, possibly believing that even a 60kWh BEV can only achiecve 140 miles (our 28kWh Ioniq is averaging 4.7m/kWh, and will do 5.5 simply by driving gently, not even in ECO mode, so 130+miles is, dare I say, easy*).

You may also have been concerned that they are so noisy, worse than an ICE, that too is silly, in fact noise reduction is really important for BEV's, it's quite a good example of irony, without all the NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) from the ICE, you then become aware of lesser/secondary noises, so design has to take noise into account, not just aerodynamics. The Tesla 3 got double glazed windows at the end of last year.

Then there's the FUD around cost, and the issues of charging, which often ignores home charging, or double FUD's down on lack of off-street parking, but solutions exist, and are expanding.

I think it's fair to say, that if you don't know much, or anything about BEV's, then 'that' article would have put you off, or seriously dampened your enthusiasm, even though the claims made are patently untrue, and that's what FUD is, as you may have been left fearful, uncertain and full of doubt about getting a BEV.

It's not new, the Telegraph, Daily Mail and similar, have been spreading FUD about green issues for years, sorry, decades, and this has left a lot of people strongly negative. But in the case of BEV's, it's easily overcome, you just get in one and drive ..... and never look back ..... so to speak. Hope that makes sense.

*This is important - before we bought the Ioniq (secondhand) Wifey joined a couple of owners groups, as we had an older Leaf with a 24kWh battery and knew that 70miles was a push in winter. We asked if 130 was possible, and how hard you had to work to achieve that, and the many, many responses were that it was easy, so long as you didn't drive silly, and that 150 miles is not only possible, but reasonable in the summer if avoiding 70mph+ driving.
Before we got the Tesla, we asked on a Tesla group if anyone local to us would swap some time, for some homemade cakes and a pack of beer, and see how easily it would fit into our drive, and also the smaller gravel side area. Within an hour there was a TM3 performance on our drive.
The moral of the story - ask people for help and advice, and they will willingingly share it, and how do I say this 'piddle' all over the FUD.

silverwhistle

shinytop said:

The public infrastructure for EVs is clearly inadequate; surely nobody could objectively argue otherwise.  Unless you have a home charging, EV ownership is currently impractical for most and even if you do have it, long journeys are not straightforward.

And why so much discussion and angst about a Sunday Post article?  The Sunday Post’s readership is 80% CDE demographic and 90% aged 45+.  It’s very good at what it does but you are not going to find an article in it wholeheartedly praising a £50k electric car.  You are going to find an article in it complaining about the decline in public infrastructure whilst having a slight dig at £50k electric cars.  It’s not FUD/Fake News, it’s just appealing to its demographic, most of whom will never own any EV, never mind a Tesla.

As I mentioned in my post above, I've never met anyone who has argued that about infrastructure, although I've seen individuals happy about their own circumstances but aware enough of the general situation. The discussion about the Sunday Post article is because someone thought fit to post it: not a balanced article from a reputable source but they selected _that_ one to post. There has been some detailed comment about why the article was inaccurate and misleading but the response, as ever, was that the complaints were fanbois, echo chamber etc., etc.

Now that travel is opening up a bit I hope to jump in my MG and put a few more miles on the clock although I'm a bit nervous with having to charge in anger on the rapid network with one of the many apps and RFID cards with which I've prepared myself. The government's wishy-washy request for contactless does not appear to have resulted in very widespread adherence. So far I've only used Podpoint, mostly free apart from a grand total of £2.08 spent, and they've been very reliable. I shall take Ken's specific advice about the M1 and Ecotricity chargers!

shinytop

silverwhistle said:

shinytop said:

The public infrastructure for EVs is clearly inadequate; surely nobody could objectively argue otherwise.  Unless you have a home charging, EV ownership is currently impractical for most and even if you do have it, long journeys are not straightforward.

And why so much discussion and angst about a Sunday Post article?  The Sunday Post’s readership is 80% CDE demographic and 90% aged 45+.  It’s very good at what it does but you are not going to find an article in it wholeheartedly praising a £50k electric car.  You are going to find an article in it complaining about the decline in public infrastructure whilst having a slight dig at £50k electric cars.  It’s not FUD/Fake News, it’s just appealing to its demographic, most of whom will never own any EV, never mind a Tesla.

As I mentioned in my post above, I've never met anyone who has argued that about infrastructure, although I've seen individuals happy about their own circumstances but aware enough of the general situation. The discussion about the Sunday Post article is because someone thought fit to post it: not a balanced article from a reputable source but they selected _that_ one to post. There has been some detailed comment about why the article was inaccurate and misleading but the response, as ever, was that the complaints were fanbois, echo chamber etc., etc.

Now that travel is opening up a bit I hope to jump in my MG and put a few more miles on the clock although I'm a bit nervous with having to charge in anger on the rapid network with one of the many apps and RFID cards with which I've prepared myself. The government's wishy-washy request for contactless does not appear to have resulted in very widespread adherence. So far I've only used Podpoint, mostly free apart from a grand total of £2.08 spent, and they've been very reliable. I shall take Ken's specific advice about the M1 and Ecotricity chargers!

 This thread is full of articles from sources whose sole reason for existence is to promote green issues, BEVs, etc.  Are you really saying they are all balanced and reputable and we should believe them without question?  And that the people who post them aren't being selective?  I want to read stuff from both sides and make up my own mind, not be force-fed a single view.  

All that aside, I would be interested in what you think of the MG in terms of range, quality, performance, etc.  It looks like good value at the moment.  

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

My next car may be an EV and the one after that probably will be.  But I want to go into it with my eyes open and some constructive debate covering a range of views - positives and negatives -  would help me a lot. I hope I can get that from this forum.

Edit - Sorry, meant to address the fake/FUD issue.
I don't think they are the same. Fake news is just a term for something you don't like, but can't put a coherent argument against it, so simply dismiss it.
FUD is a more serious beast, it's the publishing and spreading of false information, in order to mislead people, and/or create fear, uncertainty, doubt.

I know the difference; I was being 'playful'.    I do accept that BEVs get slated by some media unfairly but people need to know the facts, warts and all.

I can see there is a certain cameraderie between EV owners and that's a good thing.  It's similar with me and my ASHP; there is no end of free advice and people willing to help with their foibles.  There is also a lot of misinformed rubbish peddled by people who have never had one.   

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

shinytop said:

My next car may be an EV and the one after that probably will be.  But I want to go into it with my eyes open and some constructive debate covering a range of views - positives and negatives -  would help me a lot. I hope I can get that from this forum.

Edit - Sorry, meant to address the fake/FUD issue.
I don't think they are the same. Fake news is just a term for something you don't like, but can't put a coherent argument against it, so simply dismiss it.
FUD is a more serious beast, it's the publishing and spreading of false information, in order to mislead people, and/or create fear, uncertainty, doubt.

I know the difference; I was being 'playful'.    I do accept that BEVs get slated by some media unfairly but people need to know the facts, warts and all.

I can see there is a certain cameraderie between EV owners and that's a good thing.  It's similar with me and my ASHP; there is no end of free advice and people willing to help with their foibles.  There is also a lot of misinformed rubbish peddled by people who have never had one.   

No probs, I thought it was playful.

Funny you should mention ASHP. I only started posting on the G&E board 10yrs ago, because a couple of the renewable/sustainable sites I was on, often referred to MSE and two guys who were constantly spreading misinformation on here. The general feeling was leave em to stew in their own mess, but around that time I'd run out of F's to give, so decided I'd fight back against FUD (mostly lies then) that the FiTs scheme was immoral, and we should do nuclear instead. AGW is just too big a problem to not, at the very least, make sure that false information is countered, so anyone reading the threads won't see the lies, and assume it's true, because nobody pushed back.

Well, one of those guys still trolls me to this day, though now it tends to just be thanking people who spread anti-RE lies, and whom I'm disagreeing with - long story short (too late, I know) - that same person has for the 10yrs been popping onto any thread or discussionb about HP's to tell people how bad they are, often explaining how upset the neighbours will be due to the amount of noise from the units ....... I kid you not!

Lastly, and in the vein of MSE, you can actually monetize FUD. In 2018 an anti-BEV bod on another thread challenged me to a bet on Tesla profits or losses for Q3, and had to pay money to charities I'm involved with. And in 2019, as a way to push back against FUD and shorting, I invested in Tesla, and now have a car costing 5x more than we've ever paid before. 

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

silverwhistle said:

shinytop said:

The public infrastructure for EVs is clearly inadequate; surely nobody could objectively argue otherwise.  Unless you have a home charging, EV ownership is currently impractical for most and even if you do have it, long journeys are not straightforward.

And why so much discussion and angst about a Sunday Post article?  The Sunday Post’s readership is 80% CDE demographic and 90% aged 45+.  It’s very good at what it does but you are not going to find an article in it wholeheartedly praising a £50k electric car.  You are going to find an article in it complaining about the decline in public infrastructure whilst having a slight dig at £50k electric cars.  It’s not FUD/Fake News, it’s just appealing to its demographic, most of whom will never own any EV, never mind a Tesla.

As I mentioned in my post above, I've never met anyone who has argued that about infrastructure, although I've seen individuals happy about their own circumstances but aware enough of the general situation. The discussion about the Sunday Post article is because someone thought fit to post it: not a balanced article from a reputable source but they selected _that_ one to post. There has been some detailed comment about why the article was inaccurate and misleading but the response, as ever, was that the complaints were fanbois, echo chamber etc., etc.

Now that travel is opening up a bit I hope to jump in my MG and put a few more miles on the clock although I'm a bit nervous with having to charge in anger on the rapid network with one of the many apps and RFID cards with which I've prepared myself. The government's wishy-washy request for contactless does not appear to have resulted in very widespread adherence. So far I've only used Podpoint, mostly free apart from a grand total of £2.08 spent, and they've been very reliable. I shall take Ken's specific advice about the M1 and Ecotricity chargers!

 This thread is full of articles from sources whose sole reason for existence is to promote green issues, BEVs, etc.  Are you really saying they are all balanced and reputable and we should believe them without question?  And that the people who post them aren't being selective?  I want to read stuff from both sides and make up my own mind, not be force-fed a single view.  

Yep, I see your point now. But you need to bear in mind that this board is a Green and & Ethical one, hence why this thread will focus heavily on that side of the benefits, and suggest a move to BEV's even if (as I mentioned before) the non G&E pro's and con's come out neutral, or even slightly (just slightly) against a BEV.
In the Motoring section you will find more BEV threads which won't have a G&E base to them, which would seem entirely appropriate.

Martyn1981

I think Hyundai makes great BEV's, and no sniggering in the back about batt fires, all companies have experienced some growing pains. So very happy to see them investing serious money in the US and its EV market:

Hyundai Commits To $7.4 Billion Program To Build Electric Cars In US

Hyundai Group is taking a different approach. On May 13, the company announced it plans “to invest $7.4 billion in the U.S. by 2025 to produce future EVs, enhance production facilities, and further its investments in smart mobility solutions.” That investment is meant to enhance overall product competitiveness by prioritizing future mobility technologies, including electrification and hydrogen energy, according to the company.

[Note - I went to copy the main news paragraphs, but the article just kept on and on, with there's more, wait there's more, so well worth a read.]

NigeWick

shinytop said: My next car may be an EV and the one after that probably will be.  But I want to go into it with my eyes open and some constructive debate covering a range of views - positives and negatives -  would help me a lot. I hope I can get that from this forum.

I'm on my fourth BEV. I started with a 30kWh Nissan Leaf that would do 110 miles on a charge in the summer, driving at no more than 60mph. Obviously, less in winter at around 90 miles with the heating & aircon on. Lincolnshire to Devon took two charges and the return trip three due to the locations of rapid (50kW) chargers. The charging infrastructure has improved a lot since then but as others have said, it's still not perfect. My last BEV was a 64kWh Hyundai Kona and it was a great car for my wants. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford a Tesla Model 3 Long Range. It and the supercharger network mean that I can basically go anywhere in this country and Europe with no charging problems.

The only time I eve had range anxiety was with that 30kWh Leaf when we suddenly came a cross a diversion. caused by new road works. Even then, I was able to get a map out and sort a route home that meant we did not have to find another charger en route. There are now more companies ( a case in point is Gridserve) building charge points with multiple very rapid (up to 350kW) pumps and greta facilities.

I see the problem with BEVs is a lack of vehicles at the same price point as FF vehicles, even though they have a lower total cost of ownership due to "fuel" and servicing costs. I reckon it will be just a couple of years before Tesla starts producing its $25000 car that will cause a great shift in the way people think of BEVs.

silverwhistle

shinytop said:

All that aside, I would be interested in what you think of the MG in terms of range, quality, performance, etc.  It looks like good value at the moment.  

Like Martyn I spent 5 times more on it than any previous car so my standards may be different! One of the reasons motoring journalists are the last people you should listen to. :-)  I'm pleased though. Range has not really been tested in current circumstances and my only worry was on the way back from an airport pick-up last autumn when I saw the range dropping rapidly. Dropping down to lorry speed saw the range unchanged for miles and got home with 19 to spare on the GOM. Quality fine, although a few functions (e.g. pre-heat) not available and other aspects such as sat-nav I haven't tested yet. Adaptive cruise control handy on the local motorway roadworks! Performance no issues, and when my GF had a go the other day she was impressed with economy setting and woo-hoo when I slipped it to sport. It'll still be her diesel van for our next skiing holiday in the Italian Alps though, although I'd happily enough try the same trip in warmer temperatures. Being retired has its benefits..

Fuel costs have been very, very low, being a combination of free supermarket, solar via the granny charger, some overnight very low cost and once or twice almost reaching double figures in pence for a few kWh. That will of course change as I extend my range this summer.

thevilla

My penny worth...we've just bought a new leaf to replace a 9 1/2 year old one owner Focus.  Interestingly the recent changes to govt grants made it more affordable as only cars below 35k are  now eligible for a grant.   Many manufacturers have therefore reduced their prices including Nissan who see the Leaf selling fewer cars as they're perceived to be outdated and need to make it competitive.  Does this suggest prices were and are inflated for EVs? Hmm.
I wonder, although not unprompted, whether the removal of free charging will actually improve charging facilities by offering a return to competitors and driving competition? 
We've had the car 2 weeks and tried a local rapid(?) 50kw charge with no drama.  Hopefully a similar experience further afield!