BEVs deals and information

joefizz

This showed up in my youtube feed tonight....


It hasnt aged well at all...


Top Gear and Clarkson on buying a diesel in 1991.... sound familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEZEEbAqgfc

GreatApe

EDF tariff available with 8p off peak rates (16p other times) from 9PM to 7AM and all weekend
98 hours per week is off peak that's 58.3% of the week is off peak times

Octopus is 5p off peak 14p other times but their off peak is only 12.30AM to 4.30AM
That's 16.7% of the time as off peak

Depending on your useage pattern the EDF might be better 8p all weekend for all useage is pretty dam good

almillar

A model 3 can take about 250KW of power this does fall as the battery fills up

1. I've already excluded the Tesla supercharger network, because it's not available to everyone. 2. There aren't any 250kW chargers in the UK, yet. And I'm certain THEY don't cost $10,000 as you claim.

A super charger does not need to be used to fill to full it just needs to fill you up enough to get back home

Indeed, it is mis-using a rapid charger to charge (slowly) right up to 100%.

You could add 75 miles in 5 minute charge

3 miles per kWh. 25kWh needed in 5 minutes = a 300kW rapid charger! How much do they cost?! You're equating cutting edge, very expensive cars and chargers, with cheap low-range runaround cars that don't need range (and won't charge that fast), and cheap chargers on every street corner that don't deliver that speed.

Perhaps even a 100 mile range 20KWh model will be acceptable for most customers

My 22kWh Zoe really struggled to do 100 miles, so I don't know how you're going to get 100 miles out of 20kWh all year round.

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

1. I've already excluded the Tesla supercharger network, because it's not available to everyone. 2. There aren't any 250kW chargers in the UK, yet. And I'm certain THEY don't cost $10,000 as you claim.

BEVs are just at the start of the deployment
There is no reason to think in 10 years when this matters battery tech won't be better cheaper
Likewise no reason to think charger tech won't be better and cheaper it almost certainly will

3 miles per kWh. 25kWh needed in 5 minutes = a 300kW rapid charger! How much do they cost?!

75 miles in five minutes is the Tesla super charger
You don't need 75 miles you only need to get home
Most people if caught short only need a few miles to get home
If the average trip is 10 miles a 15 mile recharge might only need 3KWh on a small efficient BEV
A 30KW DC charger can fill that up in 6 minutes

You're equating cutting edge, very expensive cars and chargers, with cheap low-range runaround cars that don't need range (and won't charge that fast), and cheap chargers on every street corner that don't deliver that speed.

You don't need a huge number of super chargers
Just two at each petrol station would probably be fine for the UK
Most charging will be home charging
With super chargers perhaps topping up taxis and the odd person who didn't quite have enough range that day

My 22kWh Zoe really struggled to do 100 miles, so I don't know how you're going to get 100 miles out of 20kWh all year round.

One thing we can say for sure is that batter tech of 2029 is going to be better than that of 2019
Charge rates will increase
Chargers will get cheaper
Chargers will get more common

What is a high end $50k Tesla in 2019 might be a medium spec ford $25k in 2029 as far as batteries go

Martyn1981

If anyone is interested, here are two vids on ICE v's EV.

One looks at the payback period for the extra CO2 for the battery - (spoiler alert) approx 2yrs, and the second compares the CO2 emissions from running all(ish) vehicle types.

I like this guy's vids as they are quite technical, but at a simple enough level for me to understand, such as what's the difference between an AWD car and a 4x4 car ..... and many other vids.

Note - these are American figures, average mileage, energy mix, US galls etc.. Also remember these are about CO2 emissions, and we should consider the other emissions from ICE's, and the fact they are 'distributed' locally.

Are Electric Cars Worse For The Environment? Myth Busted

Are Teslas Actually Better For The Environment?

ABrass

Circling back to a small comment earlier in the thread, in California there's rolling blackouts due to fire risks. This is blocking electric car charging during that time, obviously, but also blocking most petrol stations as they need mains power to pump causing long delays and queues.

Tesla have announced they're putting in battery packs to cover the outages and say they're going to put in solar as well. When that's done the EV charging system will be more tolerant than petrol.

People who've got PV at home and batteries are still charging without disruption.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-powerwall-owners-pge-outage-gas-shortage/

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

If anyone is interested, here are two vids on ICE v's EV.

Things you have to remember about cars in the US.
1. They on average drive further, a lot further, annual mileage is about twice here. Pretty much their entire economy is built around cheaply moving around by car.

2. gas guzzlers because petrol is cheap. I filled a Nissan Versa a couple of months ago for about 15 quid. The cashier just laughed when I tried to pre-authorise 50 dollars on my credit card, she asked what car I was driving, I pointed, she said 20 dollars would do.

3. By and large no equivalent of MOT so cars can run to their natural life which they dont here so using natural life figures in US calculations makes sense which it doesnt here.


Average age of a car on the roads in the US - 12 years and rising which is what it would be here without intervention - see my earlier points. For trucks its something ridiculous like 15 years.



So Martyn, your previous calculations work for cars in the US and why I have said numerous times that Tesla should do really well over there.
Hence my comments about the discrepancies in average age of vehicles here, the average age of vehicles here has nothing to do with longevity and everything to do with the economy/politics.

Hence the reason why car average age here goes up during recessions and down afterwards. Car purchase incentives 91-92 move to diesel - as per top gear video - 2001 - introduction of 0% deals, 2009 - scrappage, recently PCP and perhaps next year EV rollout then in 6 years time after that better EV rollout or some other fudge to get older cars off the road and get people buying (or more likely renting) new ones.


The numbers work in the US because their cars are on the road for longer and higher mileages.

ABrass

A failed MOT doesn't cut a cars life short, it merely points out that it has had a good life but is in too much pain to keep going. Let's not pretend were in an automotive version of Logan's run.

The lack of MOT in the US contributes in part to the third world levels of road deaths.

The change in lifespan with economic performance isn't complex nor does it need shadowy conspiracies where old cars are taken by morlocks. I've got an old fiesta that's costing more each year in maintenance, I'll replace it at some point. If there's a recession I'll hold on longer just in case I need to go job hunting.

joefizz

ABrass wrote: »

A failed MOT doesn't cut a cars life short, it merely points out that it has had a good life but is in too much pain to keep going. Let's not pretend were in an automotive version of Logan's run.

I usually just give examples from my own experience so heres two.
Car 1, bump started it when it was 6, shouldnt have, knew the risks, ended up damaging the airbag ECU and the alarm.
Back in those days an airbag light on the dash wasnt an MOT fail. Found out it was going to be an MOT fail (off the road at 9 years) and got an MOT cancellation for the day before the new rule was going to come in. Tester laughed and said if it was tomorrow the car would have failed and probably been scrapped.
Gave me a year to find an undamaged airbag ECU from a scrapyard. I tested the airbag system and it would deploy (well in as much as any 10 year old airbag would deploy) it was just a fault in the ECU.
Managed to find one after about 6 months and another 9 years later its still going strong. If I hadnt found one it would have long gone to the scrapheap.
Now of course I could probably programme an arduino to replace the ecu as Id never find a replacement now.


Car 2. Similar airbag issue this year, took a while to find and trace and only showed the week before MOT and I had to have the car off the road for a month whilst I found time to test it. Again problem with the ancillary wiring and canbus and nothing to do with operation of the airbag system but would have been an MOT fail.


Most people dont have 2 cars and cant afford to have them off the road for that length of time, so would have been scrapped and moved on.

ABrass wrote: »

I've got an old fiesta that's costing more each year in maintenance, I'll replace it at some point. If there's a recession I'll hold on longer just in case I need to go job hunting.

Which if you think of it, is entirely my point. We arent talking about financial cost in this thread, but more impact. Its cleaner for you to fix that and keep it running than to order one on PCP (which might be easier/cheaper). It would be an economic decision to replace.

mmmmikey

One thing to keep in mind in this discussion is that cars in the UK (and possibly other places, don't really know) are far more than just tools selected as a means for getting from A to B. They are status symbols and lifestyle choices. There are lots of 4WD cars that never go off road which cost more than equivalent modesl that are a better functional match to what they're being used for. Lots of people spend more money on a coupe than they could have bought the equivalent hatchback for. Lots of people buy new cars just because (to quote GA) "they're nicer". So the length of time a car stays on the road is as much about spending choices and what makes you happy as any practical reason. Sure, that's not the case for everyone, but it is for a lot of people. My point is you can only go so far in rationalising this.