BEVs deals and information

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

Can you please confirm the cost of installing a 7kW 'home' charger vs a 50, or 100kW rapid

No idea what a rapid 100KW charger costs but some googling suggests $10,000 per charger (Tesla dedicated stations seem to be $15k per space)

A 7KW seems to be about £800 before incentives but incentives are a cost too

Deploying 500,000 rapid chargers would therefore cost $5 billion
Deploying 40 million slow chargers would be closer to $40 billion

And 500,000 rapid chargers would mean every street had one and most streets have multiple. You can think of it as every 56 homes you pass there is one super charger. There would literally be no range problems because everywhere would have a super charger every single street, most would have multiple.

For a 7kW charger, around £8k. If a supermarket installs one, I'll shop there instead of the one round the corner, so will other EV drivers. They'll soom get that £8k back. Rapid chargers (50kW+) aren't for shops.

The government could give each petrol station a grant to install two superchargers might cost about £20k per petrol station and the UK has 8,400 petrol stations so the total cost would be just £170 million this would remove range anxiety as people don't worry about being able to get petrol so they won't need to worry about getting electricity as they can buy at the same places

A 10 minute charge could add to Tesla model 3 some 100 miles range.
Easy enough to finish their trip and charge at home.

Eh? I think you mean £4,500 discount.

The 0% BIK tax break is massive the more expensive the car the bigger the tax break

joefizz

mmmmikey wrote: »

Going back to the days when we used to live in shoeboxes on the motorway (which nobody seems to believe), it was very common to do your own servicing - changing the plugs, adjusting the points, fettling the carburettor, etc.

You are going to have me in tears now, I was telling someone this the other day about the points and the amount of swearing that went on!

mmmmikey wrote: »

Now it's a specialist job involving fault code readers and a knowledge of electronics - for example, a towbar wiring issue on a Volvo I had involved a firmware upgrade. It used to be rust that brought cars to their end - not any more I suspect.

Part of the inbuilt obsolescence I was talking about and the trying to do away with the independent garage so you have to go to the dealers all the time. On the other side of it you can pick up a bluetooth obd reader for a few quid and with a free/cheap app but thats a relatively recent development.
I spent a few hundred quid down the years on vag cables, alfadiag, citreon/pug/renault software and obd cables for that.

Recently set the van to scandanavian operation which allows you to turn on the main lights all the time, tried to retro fit cruise control as the stalk was only a tenner and all the rest of the setup was there but theres no mini display on my van. It worked but couldnt tell the speeds and I couldnt be bothered trying to get it to display via the radio screen instead...


It goes to my point about legislation to level that aspect of it and use the same comms protocol across marques (a lot do already).

mmmmikey wrote: »

Paying someone with specilist skills and equipment to keep your car going changes the economics radically, and I suspect this has driven some of the decline in lifespan. All part of a throwaway culture that has developed over the last few decades.

Might be something worth looking at for subsidies in future, keeping serviceable equipment on the go when it would be beneficial to do so.

I know we are talking about cars but its across the board. Neighbour came in the other night with a load of wet washing and wanted a lend of the van to go get a washing machine. Went in, turned theirs upside down, took the filter out, pipe off, cleaned it, fixed the pump connection, working washing machine. Perfectly good machine 18 months old was going to landfill.
Even without the skills and tools (screwdriver, pliers, swearing, sticking plasters) a quick search of youtube would probably have thrown up the same checks/fixes.
Thinking of joining my local repaircafe, can see that extending to cars, or at least plug in obd readers with various software so it narrowed stuff down.

JKenH

mmmmikey wrote: »

Going back to the days when we used to live in shoeboxes on the motorway (which nobody seems to believe), it was very common to do your own servicing - changing the plugs, adjusting the points, fettling the carburettor, etc. Now it's a specialist job involving fault code readers and a knowledge of electronics - for example, a towbar wiring issue on a Volvo I had involved a firmware upgrade. It used to be rust that brought cars to their end - not any more I suspect.

Paying someone with specilist skills and equipment to keep your car going changes the economics radically, and I suspect this has driven some of the decline in lifespan. All part of a throwaway culture that has developed over the last few decades.

Ah, the good old days. I remember going to night school car maintenance classes and learning among other things how to remove a cylinder head and decoke it. Yes, that was considered diy maintenance. It’s all the emissions and electronics gumpf that makes things so complicated. There are some cars like MX5s that still attract the diy enthusiast and parts are readily available on eBay. My son has been keeping his 140,000 mile, 2007 Volvo estate running replacing a lot of the emissions parts and electronics himself with just a Halfords socket set and OBD adapter so it can be done if one is keen enough to save some money but who can be bothered.

ABrass

In the bad old days cars used to break all the time. Everyone needed to know how to fix a spark plug because they failed every half hour.*

Now cars are so much better built there is less need for that level of skill and the starting point for fixing stuff is much higher because it costs money to keep things simple.

*Slight exaggeration, but not by much.

silverwhistle

joefizz wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, Ive never been as insulted in all my life ;-) Mail or Express. wash your mouth out.

I do apologise. Mind you, from what I've seen of the Torygraph recently they seem to have gone desperately downmarket and populist too.


On a more general point on the subsequent posts I don't think many people have suggested scrapping cars before their time, and I find the average 6/7 year life not something that I've experienced: do you have any handy source for that?


My first car was a Morris Marina and with help from a friend (i.e. I helped him..) replaced alternator brushes and a new steering wheel wiring loom (etc.). I'm not a particularly practical lady but as I've always been on my own managed to diagnose and replace a washing machine pump. I appreciate people want new but not sure all the talk about PCP and scrappage has much inherently to do with EVs.



I've been looking in to trying out an EV via EVEZY, their cheapest when available is a ZOE. I've been looking into both range against journeys undertaken and charging as I don't have my own drive at the moment. There might be the odd awkward moment but nothing a bit of intelligence and planning won't smooth over. The problem is one I observed way before learning to drive at a pretty late age: you don't need much intelligence to drive a car..

joefizz

silverwhistle wrote: »

On a more general point on the subsequent posts I don't think many people have suggested scrapping cars before their time, and I find the average 6/7 year life not something that I've experienced: do you have any handy source for that?

Just upgraded my computer over the last couple of days so dont have the old links from the gov statistics but there is this
https://www.statista.com/statistics/299951/average-age-of-cars-on-the-road-in-the-united-kingdom/

silverwhistle wrote: »

My first car was a Morris Marina and with help from a friend (i.e. I helped him..) replaced alternator brushes and a new steering wheel wiring loom (etc.). I'm not a particularly practical lady but as I've always been on my own managed to diagnose and replace a washing machine pump. I appreciate people want new but not sure all the talk about PCP and scrappage has much inherently to do with EVs.

No, its nothing to do with EVs but had an effect on the average life. If anything with all the talk of longevity of EVs should mean longer lives but as some of the early figures show they dont, although a lot of that is down to refining the tech. We are a huge way away from the first edition leafs already.
As I mentioned earlier, my friends who have bought EVs plan to keep them longer than any of their previous cars.



My first car in 1988 was a 1981 ford fiesta. I kept it through uni and half way through my masters so 4 years. I got a letter from the DVLNI 2 years later about some unpaid parking tickets on it, so it was at least 13 years old at that point.
My next car was a 5 year old Ford Orion, kept that for 4 years and traded it in but dont know what happened to it after that, was going to give it to my sister but she wanted something smaller.
Bought a 3 year old Rover 214 and kept that for 5 years myself and then sold it on privately. I met the man I sold it to 3 years later and he said his son was now driving it.
Bought a new car in 2000 and still have it. Bought a new car/van for business use and carting equipment around in 2007 and still have it.
So agree with you I couldnt get over the average lifetime of a car in the uk is only 6-7 years, particularly when you compare the cars now to the list of cars above.

silverwhistle wrote: »

I've been looking in to trying out an EV via EVEZY, their cheapest when available is a ZOE. I've been looking into both range against journeys undertaken and charging as I don't have my own drive at the moment. There might be the odd awkward moment but nothing a bit of intelligence and planning won't smooth over. The problem is one I observed way before learning to drive at a pretty late age: you don't need much intelligence to drive a car..

Will be genuinely interested to see how you get on.
Its like the things Martyn said (and Im not picking on you martyn, honest ;-)) about needing more seats (just do 2 runs), large dogs (get a dog trailer), large sheets (trailer and or roofrack). But I have no idea how practical/impractical those solutions would be for Martyn, so yes solutions are easily available for most things but are they really practical or even do people really want to be bothered adapting... ...in most cases not.



Its one of the reasons my recent trip through the US has made me more hopeful in Teslas future, they have made it very easy for people over there.
All the cars talk back to base so theres no need to do surveys and ask people to install new charging points etc as the cars will report all this back in almost real time. This has to be balanced out by the cheap trucks and unbelieveably cheap gas, the cost doesnt really come in to most calculations whereas electricity prices do.


The small electric cars have made it very easy for city car sharing schemes, they mostly have dedicated parking bays anyway so charging points are easy to install and generally distances are small.

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

Problem is, the average lifetime of a car in the UK is 6-7 years... but thats why they quote mileage figures. As Ive mentioned, surprisingly, that figure hasnt really changed at all in the last 20 years.
Maybe it will change with EVs, who knows?

I think you are massively understating average lifetime, it's more like double that. Have you accidentally posted average/median age, which would (I'd guess) be closer to 6/7yrs?

If you've been operating under that assumption, then that might explain your concerns, but if you work to 13yrs (or so) and note that the percentage of new cars that are BEV's hasn't broken double digit percentages yet, then we can see that supply is the problem, certainly no issue of good cars being scrapped to promote BEV's, since there simply aren't enough BEV's / simply not a high enough turnover of new to old, to raise concerns.

joefizz wrote: »

Double quoting is bad form I know but Ive just checked the average annual mileage for uk cars in 2017 and it was just over 7100 miles.
I did notice down the years the insurance renewal default mileage had dropped from 12000 down to 8000 and thought it was just another attempt to get money out me!
Im genuinely surprised at that.
I know you cant really multiple average years old by average miles and get anything meaningful but that figure comes out at less than 50k miles!

13yrs is ~100,000 miles.

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

Yes you do....





You just dont see your 'problems' as 'problems', just other peoples.
My own 'problems' are pretty much the same as yours plus I need something that will do just over 250 miles in all weathers, in all traffic conditions without more than a 20min 30 min delay.
Right now maybe 1 EV (Tesla) will do this but it wont carry my gear as well, so I'll need 2 cars so why bother?



Yes I could get a leaf or a phev for the small journeys but again Ill reiterate my point, buying a new car just on the basis of this will add considerably to the problem that we are all trying to solve...


As for charging a BEV during the day from PV, well if I could sit and charge it at home all day from PV then I probably dont need it in the first place! The vast majority of people would need their car during the day, hardly extreme edge cases.

1. No, I really don't. I understand that the issue you raise are theoretically possible, but that doesn't mean they are real for the vast majority, or would happen on a significant basis.

2. I do see the issues regarding my current needs v's the options for cheap(ish) sh BEV's, but that's simply because there aren't as many models of BEV's available yet, and less again in older sh models. Variety of BEV's is not a long term problem, we are not all driving Ford Model T's today, are we?

3. But I'm not planning on buying a new BEV, and I don't see why you would need to either. As the supply of new cars rolls out, that leads to sh availablity, the same applies, of course to BEV's. My ideas/plans are to reduce our petrol consumption/emissions by shifting the majority of miles (and logically, the slowest and dirtiest city miles) onto cleaner leccy propulsion.

4. The vast majority of people don't use their cars all of the day. Most of the time it will be parked up. That mean in a building / car park that has PV generation, but for those of us that have a car at home during the day (rather than parked up somewhere else most of the day), then utilising PV generation is entirely possible.

In fact, moving away from your position of always needing to charge an EV, to a more reasonable figure based on average mileage, it would even be possible for Wifey and I to choose to use the Zafira for a work run, whilst leaving the BEV unused that day as the forecast is good, and it can get, perhaps 2.4kW x 5hrs = 50 miles, which for boring work only runs would cover the other 4 days of the week.

There are loads of solutions, and possibilities, certainly far more than any real problems, and as the range of BEV's increases (both ways) more and more solutions will roll out.

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I think you are massively understating average lifetime, it's more like double that. Have you accidentally posted average/median age, which would (I'd guess) be closer to 6/7yrs?

Thats the entire essence of my argument right there Martyn.

The average age of a vehicle operating in the uk is 6/7 years (taken from DVLA figures).
You could say the average lifetime of a vehicle is 13 years.


Cars in the UK arent being run to their average lifetime. If they were there would be a lot less new cars bought and we wouldnt be having this discussion (or certainly my part of it).


I'll repeat it once again to be absolutely clear. The figures for EVs vs ICE (or new ICE vs old ICE) are averaged over the lifetime. Cars in the UK arent being run to that lifetime.

Martyn1981

Just to make the calcs even harder, we should include second life for the batts too.

In the medium+ term, all nations will need intra-day storage to allow higher penetrations of RE, and in a virtuous circle, we can expect charging locations to rollout storage so that they can supply energy more in line with their daily energy feed, rather than being limited to a point in time power feed. [Could even be a way of reducing charging costs, or improving charging profitability, by absorbing cheap excess when available.]

And of course, expect BEV manufacturing plants to also rollout second life storage to again smooth out power demand/supply.