eBay and Paypal scammed as a seller

soolin

sok777 wrote: »

I appreciate the information and the comment. Looking at my eBay account now I don't see an option to do that, other than to not accept collections at all. Anyway, I'm not a professional seller, I'm merely a person who sells on eBay once or twice a year. I've used both eBay and PayPal for many years, and never had any issues not as a buyer (300+ things bought) and not as a seller (probably a few dozens items sold)

That's the point of directing you to the other thread (and it really is worth a read) here it is again:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/65282064#Comment_65282064

I actually do not list collection only items on ebay as i cannot guarantee I can fulfil the requirement for seller protection/

This postage thread also explains the issue:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3146680/postage-a-helpful-guide-revised-3-april-2017

plus all your emails from paypal, plus the transaction details will carry a warning, again this is the one I posted already a cut and paste from a paypal notification:

This item is eligible for Seller Protection.
Don't forget to:

Send the item to the shipping address below within 7 days.
Please note:items delivered in person or to a different address are not cover by Seller Protection.
Use a trackable proof of delivery.

This part from another of your posts

You realise that their policy ultimately says that I could send anything that looks and weighs like the item, and once the buyer signs for it - I'm protected. And this is superior to actual evidence and CCTV?

is immaterial and does not further your cause. I fear discussing how to stay safe both as a buyer and seller in great detail (and yes it is possible) will just confuse your issue and not add to the help people can give. If you want to discuss how to prevent other scams then I suggest a new thread, after having read the threads I have already posted. Many of us have taken thousands and thousands of paypal payments with a minute amount of issues. Again part is reading up on the rules, the rest is common sense and experience. I really don't want to go off topic here on this thread though.

MEM62

sok777 wrote: »

Well a proof of postage doesn't mean anything, as you can post anything and the buyer can still say it wasn't the item. There's no way around it.

But the point is if you had done that you would be covered.

sok777 wrote: »

You can't expect ordinary genuine people to be aware of scams.

But it is widely known.

sok777 wrote: »

PayPal and their so called protection is a joke to be honest because a proof of delivery is absolutely worthless as the buyer can claim that someone else signed for them or that it was a different item.

Absolutely correct. And that is another potential way to scam, in that case scam buyers. There are inherent flaws in the rules and the best way to avoid the potential pit falls is to be wise to them.

ess0two

sok777 wrote: »

I'll happily take it to court because as a moral person if it isn't enough that this scammer is roaming free, I have no money and no item.
I'm sorry for what has happened to you. I spoke to eBay yesterday and told them that any buyer, including myself, can claim an item wasn't received and if that's the case- why wouldn't everyone do it? Of course, I'd never do it for moral reasons, but if the loophole is there someone will take advantage of it. If I do get the CCTV from my neighbour, then I think I have a pretty solid case if it gets to court.
I read now, on a different forum, that you can contact the ombudsman for help with these queries. Any idea about that?

Who's to say you didn't engineer the scam? I doubt you'll get very far with ebay or paypal.

theonlywayisup

sok777 wrote: »

I do believe you are trying to help here, but your last sentence is a really poor and ugly comment.
The scam didn't happen because I "broke" paypal rules. It has happened because there is a terrible human being who decided to do this, period.

Scammers are terrible human beings.

Scams happen because people are naive/silly/unaware.

Paypal protection is excellent, if you know the rules. You did break them (in so much as you didn't follow them). Take that as ugly if you wish but it is true.

Think of it like this.....would you have allowed a buyer to come and give you a cheque and take the item away? Some would (naive/silly/unaware) but most are savvy enough to know the money isn't theirs until the cheque clears.

With Paypal, you needed to find out when the money becomes yours - ie, what you need to do to satisfy Paypal that you've done what they require. You failed. I don't know if that was because you were naive, silly or unaware but that really doesn't matter. What matters is, that it has happened and you are not going to get anywhere with Paypal (because their protection rules were broken).

ballisticbrian

You realise that their policy ultimately says that I could send anything that looks and weighs like the item, and once the buyer signs for it - I'm protected

Trying to piece together PayPals policy just from the point of view of how you've been scammed isn't helping yourself. To do that you really have to go through the whole buying process starting with the fact that if you send the item to an address, the recipient whether scammer or not has to be at that address. So that fact would limit PayPals exposure to risk from that address.
These small details you are overlooking are really blinding you to the truth of the matter.

The other points you make about not being an expert in scams or not being a professional seller, well I'm afraid scams are now a big part of online safety, and we all need to get on board with it and clued up. It's not good enough to join a web site and agree to whatever terms and conditions and then hold your hands up. A friend of mine was recently scammed for 1000's on a dating site. You don't have to be selling goods or on eBay - it's everywhere online, especially in your email box, so be careful!


The other mistake in your logic from a few things you've said, and reading between the lines, you think your exposure to risk of being scammed is the same as any user of eBay but it isn't. What you have done is sell an item worth 1000 and although you haven't said what it is, I would bet it is something easy for the scammer to move on quickly such as desirable electronics. At this stage you are already in the most likely group to be scammed and then subsequently you haven't paid attention to the PayPal protection rules, so you are actually the "honey-pot".

adindas

I am fully aware that pay with PP on eBay collection in person is a well-known trap use by scammers, but I have sympathy with the OP.

PP and eBay are two separate entities but PP is a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay. They must have duty of care. Also, if I am not mistaken, there is no warming on eBay/PP websites about using PP for Collection in person. There is a simple solution for them, put warning and/or not allowing people to pay by PP for collection in person.

Why they do not do these things. Is it because they are also profiting from this well-known scam ?

Fight the case in the court for those who determine to make eBay a safer place for other people might be the way to go especially if you have some evidence that could stand in the court. It might also bring the full attention of eBay and PP to close this honey trap.

Reporting the case to NCA/police might also trace to find the scammer and put eBay / PP in pressure to put something in place to prevent further scam.

soolin

adindas wrote: »

I am fully aware that pay with PP on eBay collection in person is a well-known trap use by scammers, but I have sympathy with the OP.

PP and eBay are two separate entities but PP is a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay. They must have duty of care. Also, if I am not mistaken, there is no warming on eBay/PP websites about using PP for Collection in person. There is a simple solution for them, put warning and/or not allowing people to pay by PP for collection in person.

Why they do not do these things. Is it because they are also profiting from this well-known scam ?

Fight the case in the court for those who determine to make eBay a safer place for other people might be the way to go especially if you have some evidence that could stand in the court. It might also bring the full attention of eBay and PP to close this honey trap.

Reporting the case to NCA/police might also trace to find the scammer and put eBay / PP in pressure to put something in place to prevent further scam.

eBay and PayPal split into 2 different companies in 2015

PayPal became eBay’s main payments provider in 2003, a few months after eBay had acquired the company in a deal valued at $1.5 billion. The two companies split into separate public companies in July of 2015 and signed a five-year operating agreement to maintain a close relationship through mid-2020.

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/31/16957212/ebay-adyen-paypal-payments-agreement

Ebay now have their own payment system called AYden which is being rolled out in the US already and is expected in the U.K. In 2020 , although the roll out has been delayed already.

Yes there is a mismatch between eBay and PayPal requirements and as has been said several times on this thread, in the press , on TV and in the sticky thread here on this forum that sellers need to be aware of the rules of all companies they use. The PayPal warning is very clear, it is not hidden away at all, if you cannot be sure to be safe using PayPal then choose another selling venue that doesn't require it.

As I have said above even as a very heavy user of eBay I have chosen not to sell collection only items on eBay unless the value is low enough not to bother me if I get scammed.

MEM62

Any update from eBay OP?

adindas

MEM62 wrote: »

Any update from eBay OP?

Yes I think eBay has responsibility not to allow their system to be used by scammers.

This is a well known route used by scammers, why ebay keep allowing PP payment for collection in person ??

theonlywayisup

adindas wrote: »

Yes I think eBay has responsibility not to allow their system to be used by scammers.

This is a well known route used by scammers, why ebay keep allowing PP payment for collection in person ??

People have to be responsible for themselves.