Local Council Refusing to Intervene in PCN

SotonCar

Hello again!

Having already dealt with one PCN, I have now have another that has come about while on holiday in North Devon with a different complication to my previous one.

Here is a copy of the email I sent to Ilfracombe Town Council for context:

Hello,

I have today received a PCN from Premier Park, as has another person I was with on the day with a different vehicle, for The Ropery Car Park.

I have dealt with companies like Premier Park before and know that contacting them directly is both ill-advised and also legitmising the awful tactics that these companies use to scam individuals.

"I was on holiday and entered the car park at 11:34am as stated on the PCN. On arrival myself and others in our party were trying to find change to pay for the parking. We couldn't find any initially so tried to call using RingGo but due to poor reception none of us could use this service. I then found my childrens holiday money in an envelope from their grandparents. My father-in-law was under the impression that the machine did not accept £2 coins (which was all I had), so I walked up the road to try and find change and used the local arcade to change to £1 coins. I then returned to the car park and all of our party paid for 4 hours parking.

The PCN I have received then goes on to say that we left the car park at 15:56, spending a total of 4hrs 21mins, meaning we had overstayed. According to your website the grace period is now 15 minutes. Therefore I now have a £100 "fine" for 6 minutes of time spent trying very hard to actually pay correctly for our stay in the village.

No doubt CCTV from the area and the arcade would confirm this if you feel that is neccessary.

I know from past experience that if I were to lodge an appeal directly with Premier Park it would be immediately rejected, therefore please may I request that this PCN is cancelled. We were tourists in the area, and visiting the car park for the first time, and did all we could to pay correctly, enjoy the village, and spend lots of money at local businesses."

The reply I received was:

Hello,

Thank you for your email and taking the time to explain the circumstances, I am truly sorry for your current situation. Unfortunately, Premier Park manage all of the enforcement of the Ropery Road Car Park until October 2019 , the Council have extremely limited powers to intervene in any of their processes. I would advise you to contact Premier Park direct or POPLA, as an independent appeals services, this is the only recourse for formal appeal against a PCN.

My reply:

Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

I have appealed with Premier Park and I’m awaiting a response from them.

I have dealt with these situations before and am fully aware that the land owner has rather significant powers in these situations. The council have employed Premier Park to work on their behalf. A phone call to Premier Park from the council would rectify the situation.

Their response:
Hello,

Thank you for your email, I regret that I can only confirm the position and unfortunately a phone call from the council will not be able to rectify the situation.

I have since asked for a contact telephone number for someone at the council. No reply.

Off the back of this I have emailed the MP for North Devon as received the following reply (which I believe it factually correct in terms of parliamentary rules):

Apologies but due to Parliamentary protocol Peter cannot act on your behalf and you would need to approach your own MP.

In these PCN situations where the council own the land but a private company is used I’m afraid that Ilfracombe Town councils response is correct.

Again, apologies that we cannot take this any further.

I have now emailed my local MP to see what can be done. I am also awaiting the outcome of the appeal and POPLA code.

A Google search of the Ropery Car Park brings up some reviews of people having similar issues around the same time, as well as historic issues.

The reason for my post is - a) Is it correct that a local council can do nothing about this, even though they are the landowner? as stated on their website
and b) If so, other than POPLA is there anything more I can do?

Many thanks in advance

Johno100

To be clear. The notice you received through the post, does it say Parking Charge Notice or Penalty Charge Notice on it?

Just had a quick look at the council website where it says

The Ropery Road car park is owned by Ilfracombe Town Council with the surplus from the parking fees being reinvested into the town.

The car park is managed by Premier Park Ltd who are responsible for the Automatic Number Plate Recognition camera system and the issuing of Penalty Charge Notices should the cark park regulations be contravened.

http://www.ilfracombetowncouncil.gov.uk/council/parking-permits/ropery-car-park/

And here's a thread about that very car park from just last month that may give you some ideas of how to attack this.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6019240

daveyjp

A Town Council is little more than a talking shop for people with nothing better to do. Its one up from a Parish Council.

They operate outside of Council legal structures, certainly don't have City, District or County Council powers and won't have a clue about the issues of private parking companies and the problems they bring.

The office will be a clerk and possibly a treasurer.

In terms of PPCs they are no different to a hotel, supermarket, retailer which contracts them.

Coupon-mad

You need to tell the Council that you are escalating the complaint to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, specifically objecting to the Council allowing a private firm to operate a Council owned, publicly accessible car park as if it were private land, which Parliament disallows. And allowing the PPC to mislead keepers about liability.

Cite the Kent case where the Ombudsman told Kent CC to stop the scammer and they were ordered to pay back the person who had been misled into paying a private PCN and misled about keeper liability on non-relevant land.

Search the forum for Kent Ombudsman decision and use what you find, and see it through. Hopefully Ilfracombe will be ordered to cease this operation and kick PP out.

I am shortly planning to help a Sussex poster to try to get District Enforcement removed at Lancing, for similar reasons, by a complaint to the LA Ombudsman who has that level of clout.

With DE the only difference is, I believe they don't mention keeper liability but I still plan to assist in a formal Ombudsman complaint about the operation being unlawful on that land. Your case will be stronger for the Ombudsman complaint, if PP are saying the POFA appies, when it dos not.

Johno100

Coupon-mad wrote: »

With DE the only difference is, I believe they don't mention keeper liability but I still plan to assist in a formal Ombudsman complaint about the operation being unlawful on that land. Your case will be stronger for the Ombudsman complaint, if PP are saying the POFA appies, when it dos not.

If this unsuccessful POPLA appeal is anything to go by then they are seeking to rely on keeper liability.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75329908&postcount=3348

Also having read around this matter it is clear this isn't a case of council owned land being leased to a third party who then decide to operate it as a car park. This is and always has been a council car park and it is the council who have entered into an agreement with DE to run it.

SotonCar

Have just checked the letter. It is a Parking Charge Notice.

SotonCar

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You need to tell the Council that you are escalating the complaint to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, specifically objecting to the Council allowing a private firm to operate a Council owned, publicly accessible car park as if it were private land, which Parliament disallows. And allowing the PPC to mislead keepers about liability.

Cite the Kent case where the Ombudsman told Kent CC to stop the scammer and they were ordered to pay back the person who had been misled into paying a private PCN and misled about keeper liability on non-relevant land.

Search the forum for Kent Ombudsman decision and use what you find, and see it through. Hopefully Ilfracombe will be ordered to cease this operation and kick PP out.

I am shortly planning to help a Sussex poster to try to get District Enforcement removed at Lancing, for similar reasons, by a complaint to the LA Ombudsman who has that level of clout.

With DE the only difference is, I believe they don't mention keeper liability but I still plan to assist in a formal Ombudsman complaint about the operation being unlawful on that land. Your case will be stronger for the Ombudsman complaint, if PP are saying the POFA appies, when it dos not.

In one of the emails I received from the council they have said that PP will only be used until October 2019, so I assume that means they have already been booted.

Thank you for the information, this gives me a next step.

DoaM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

You need to tell the Council that you are escalating the complaint to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, specifically objecting to the Council allowing a private firm to operate a Council owned, publicly accessible car park as if it were private land, which Parliament disallows. And allowing the PPC to mislead keepers about liability.

Does that still apply if ...

daveyjp wrote: »

A Town Council is little more than a talking shop for people with nothing better to do. Its one up from a Parish Council.

They operate outside of Council legal structures, certainly don't have City, District or County Council powers and won't have a clue about the issues of private parking companies and the problems they bring.

??

The_Deep

Have you complained to your MP?

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Coupon-mad

Yes it does, IMHO, and it costs nothing to report them to the Ombudsman.

Councils (any councils) are not allowed to operate car parks ''as if they were private land'' and cannot allow a contractor to lie that the POFA applies, a law that does NOT apply.

In one of the emails I received from the council they have said that PP will only be used until October 2019, so I assume that means they have already been booted.

Make that LA Ombudsman complaint during August, quickly. No delays!

You want to make sure the Council don't just line up more of the same with another PPC. They need telling by the Ombudsman that they cannot operate car parks this way, and the Kent case will help you remind the Ombudsman about their January decision and hopefully they will then be consistent and slap Ilfracombe, and stop any future PPC getting a contract.

SotonCar

The_Deep wrote: »

Have you complained to your MP?

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Thank you for this. Yes I have complained to both the North Devon MP and my local MP in Southampton. North Devon agreed with the local council in their lack of intervention and my local MP is yet to respond.