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Local Council Refusing to Intervene in PCN

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  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    This was also my response from North Devon Council when I raised the concern with them:

    Dear Mr ----

    Thank you for your email, however we are unable to assist with this matter.

    North Devon District Council can only assist where the complaint is against an elected member (i.e Councillor). We do not hold any jurisdiction over Ilfracombe Town Council and their procedures.

    I would therefore recommend contacting the Proper Officer at the Town Council, to raise your complaint and obtain further details of their complaints procedure if you wish to escalate the matter further. The Proper Officer is

    , and her direct email address is


    Feel very much like I'm going around in circles now.
  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    edited 15 August 2019 at 5:37PM
    Hello Mr
    ,

    Unfortunately I have not been able to look at the Kent complaint.

    Just to clarify a few points:
    - Ilfracombe Town Council own Ropery Road Car Park
    - There is not a parking order in place, this is because Ropery Road car park is on private land and it’s therefore not required
    - Premier Park manages the car park and are sub contracted to manage the car park. PP is the civil enforcement agent.
    - Premier Park is approved by the British Parking Association. This is a voluntary regulation with a code of conduct/practice.
    - Ropery Road car park is unregulated, as it is private land and therefore not required to be “covered” by the Traffic Management Act (the “regulator”).
    - IF a car park is under the TMA it cannot have ANPR – this is why ITC can have ANPR cameras.
    - Ilfracombe Town Council is not a traffic authority
    I attach our complaints policy for you perusal, if you wish to make a formal complaint, please follow the procedure within the policy.

    Assuming all of the above is correct I will just have to see how my local MP gets on.
  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    From ITC complaints procedure:
    After the complaints procedure has been followed, the complainant has no right to further
    appeal and it remains the position that the Local Government Ombudsman has no
    jurisdiction over the Town Council.


    So once I've complained to the Proper Officer (which I have) and they decide that the PCN will not be cancelled (which they have), there is nowhere left to go up the chain.

    Apologies for so many posts, just wanted to get everything down while fresh on my mind.
  • Hello Mr
    ,

    Unfortunately I have not been able to look at the Kent complaint.

    Just to clarify a few points:
    - Ilfracombe Town Council own Ropery Road Car Park
    - There is not a parking order in place, this is because Ropery Road car park is on private land and it’s therefore not required
    - Premier Park manages the car park and are sub contracted to manage the car park. PP is the civil enforcement agent.
    - Premier Park is approved by the British Parking Association. This is a voluntary regulation with a code of conduct/practice.
    - Ropery Road car park is unregulated, as it is private land and therefore not required to be “covered” by the Traffic Management Act (the “regulator”).
    - IF a car park is under the TMA it cannot have ANPR – this is why ITC can have ANPR cameras.
    - Ilfracombe Town Council is not a traffic authority
    I attach our complaints policy for you perusal, if you wish to make a formal complaint, please follow the procedure within the policy.

    Is the above response from Ilfracombe Town Council?
    I believe they are wrong to say they are not a traffic authority. Look at the definition in POFA paragraph 3(2) which includes “Parish or Community Council” in the definition. “Relevant land” excludes a “parking place provide by a traffic authority” (Para 3(1)) and so POFA would not apply and there can be no keeper liability.
  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    FujiKat wrote: »
    Is the above response from Ilfracombe Town Council?

    Yes this was sent from the Proper Officer.
    FujiKat wrote: »
    I believe they are wrong to say they are not a traffic authority. Look at the definition in POFA paragraph 3(2) which includes “Parish or Community Council” in the definition. “Relevant land” excludes a “parking place provide by a traffic authority” (Para 3(1)) and so POFA would not apply and there can be no keeper liability.

    Thank you - I have returned this information to them.
  • "Kent County Council and a Town Council are completely different things"

    I agree. Town Councils are third tier local government-and don't have the power to make Off Street Parking Orders-and because of this Ilfracombe Town Council has now asked North Devon District to take over enforcement at the Ropery and it has been included in North Devon's recent amendment order.

    But, the definition of "traffic authority" in POFA includes "Parish or Community Council". so I believe that Ilfracombe Town Council is a traffic authority under POFA so any parking place they provide or control is excluded in the definition of "relevant land" and so POFA cannot be used to invoke keeper liability.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 43,410 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Unfortunately I have not been able to look at the Kent complaint.
    Appalling, dismissive response. He/she needs to get of his/her fat **** and find it. I bet they move a lot quicker when lunchtime calls!

    To save their fat ****, send them this link and tell them they no longer have any excuse for 'not being able to look'. Who pays these people? Beggars belief!

    https://www.lgo.org.uk/assets/attach/4521/REPORT%2017004169%20KENT%20CC.pdf
    There is not a parking order in place, this is because Ropery Road car park is on private land
    If the car park is on 'private land', why is a local council involved? Ask them to tell you who is the owner of the private land.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,371 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Assuming all of the above is correct
    It's not.

    The lack of traffic order is irrelevant AFAIK (Councils who own land but open it for public parking cannot operate that land as if it were private, IMHO) and the Ombudsman complaint costs you nothing at all.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    I sent the Kent link in my first email to them, so no excuse really.

    The ombudsman can’t do anything as the don’t get involved with town councils.
  • SotonCar
    SotonCar Posts: 51 Forumite
    From ITC this morning:

    Hello Mr ——-

    Ilfracombe Town Council IS NOT a traffic authority.

    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

    8. When a person parks their car on private land not covered by a TRO without paying any required charges, the car park operator can issue a Parking Charge

    Notice to the owner under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (the “2012 Act”).

    This is different to a Penalty Charge Notice under the 2004 Act.

    9. The 2012 Act allows car park operators to recover these charges through the civil courts and to transfer liability for any charges to the owner of the car.

    10. Schedule 4, section 3 of the 2012 Act says this does not apply where the parking place is provided or controlled by a traffic authority.

    The Kent complaint was decided so because Kent County Council IS a traffic authority.
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