How to enforce parking restrictions without being an a%&$ ?

Computersaysno

hartebeestfootprint wrote: »

Really?
It says "permit holders only", if you don't have a permit, then you know that you are not authorised to park there. You don't need to know how to get a permit to know not to park, surely? In our case, you get a permit by getting a job in the office, do I need to put that on the sign?


Should the sign also explain that there are white lines painted on the surface, and you park correctly if your wheels are all within a set of lines, etc? Maybe I need a bigger sign to list out all the possible ways of parking correctly and incorrectly!



Your questions seem to be those that you would ask if you knew you were in the wrong, but were looking for a technicality to wiggle out of the consequences. Do you genuinely look at that sign and think "perfect, the owner has provided me with free parking!"? Or do you say to yourself "I can see this is a private lot, and the owner is trying to enforce perfectly reasonable parking restrictions, but I think I can get away with it because I spotted an error on the sign"?


That's a good point. What is should say is something along the lines that if you do not have a permit, then you agree to pay the listed parking charge of £85 per day or part thereof. Saying parking is essentially forbidden unless you are authorised probably means only a trespass could be prosecuted.

Dear OP
You seem hell bent on cobbling together some "quasi-legal PPC-like but not the same as them" signs....and then you start tossing in technicalities etc..


Why not just keep things simple...stop trying to invent some new solution [trust me the PPCs have been trying to do this for years ; every time they get screwed in court they re-engineer their process/sign etc]/...


Chains/blocking/gates/double parking/....all of these work a lot better and quicker than bits of tin signage and paper.

twhitehousescat

hartebeestfootprint wrote: »

Really?
It says "permit holders only", if you don't have a permit, then you know that you are not authorised to park there. You don't need to know how to get a permit to know not to park, surely? In our case, you get a permit by getting a job in the office, do I need to put that on the sign?


Should the sign also explain that there are white lines painted on the surface, and you park correctly if your wheels are all within a set of lines, etc? Maybe I need a bigger sign to list out all the possible ways of parking correctly and incorrectly!



Your questions seem to be those that you would ask if you knew you were in the wrong, but were looking for a technicality to wiggle out of the consequences. Do you genuinely look at that sign and think "perfect, the owner has provided me with free parking!"? Or do you say to yourself "I can see this is a private lot, and the owner is trying to enforce perfectly reasonable parking restrictions, but I think I can get away with it because I spotted an error on the sign"?


That's a good point. What is should say is something along the lines that if you do not have a permit, then you agree to pay the listed parking charge of £85 per day or part thereof. Saying parking is essentially forbidden unless you are authorised probably means only a trespass could be prosecuted.

you intend to charge £85 for parking per day

so you have obtained planning permission for a public car park, the correct ratable value has been set for this land , you have installed the correct number of disabled parking bays

Umkomaas

hartebeestfootprint wrote: »

What sort of signs do you suggest?

Take your pick:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R4.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xprivate+p.TRS0&_nkw=private+parking+sign&_sacat=0

Follow up with one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osacat=0&_odkw=private+parking+sticker&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=parking+charge+notice&_sacat=0

But nothing but nothing (other than the bollards and chains you've already discounted) is going to deter those determined to dump their car wherever it suits.

Other than achieving some personal pleasure of vengeance through enforcement harassment, I don't see PPC signage having any more positive affect than decent dummy signs and PCNs from eBay.

Unless there is an offer of parking on your car park then no contractual agreement can be formed. If you're not offering parking then prohibiting signs are the alternative. You (or the PPC) are on a hiding to nothing trying to conflate contractual and prohibiting conditions to produce an enforceable charge.

If someone pays a charge based on a prohibiting sign, they will have done so mistakenly and through naivety as it can be nothing other than a penalty that no private organisation can legally impose. While you might think it a very long shot, the PPI scandal has cost banks billions. The private parking scene is ripe for picking for the ambulance chasers once PPI is put to bed. And landowners will become an equally legitimate target as the PPCs (theres a track record of rapid insolvency and closure when things get hot!). Check out vicarious liability.

I don't think there is any quick-fix, easy option. You have to do what you best see fit (please don't manipulate words to try to put in my mouth from that statement) and see what works best for you.

hartebeestfootprint

Signs will require planning permission, and advertising consent.
likewise with any other equipment/signage.

No, signs that are not illuminated and are under 0.3sqm do not rquire any consent. In any case signs that are not at the front of the property do not require consent either, which would also apply in my case https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/4/adverts_and_signs I did the planning permission for our current usage so I am up to speed on this.

Dear OP
You seem hell bent on cobbling together some "quasi-legal PPC-like but not the same as them" signs....and then you start tossing in technicalities etc..

Not at all - this was suggested by Umkomaas as a solution (own signs, not PPC signs) so I was asking what it should say. Then people leap in saying that the sign isn't technically correct so can be ignored :-)

you intend to charge £85 for parking per day so you have obtained planning permission for a public car park, the correct ratable value has been set for this land , you have installed the correct number of disabled parking bays

No, I intend to stop people parking where they are not allowed to by causing economic harm to them so they stop doing it over and over. Trespass apparently doesn't have enough teeth, and if I need to get planning permission for public parking just to enable a contract of adhesion to attach to the driver, then that doesn't work either which means that short of my making it physically impossible to get into our bays (which I've explained multiple times is not very practical in our lot), every man and his dog is allowed to park there.

It seems that this is almost impossible to legally limit parking on private land. Maybe that is why people resort to using PPCs in the first place?

Dear OP ...you've been given lots of advice and options...like any internet forum its now down to you to shift through them and separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have, and I have learnt a lot - many thanks to everyone that's contributed.The main thing I've learned is that there is no easy solution - I either need to inconvenience our people or people who park without authorisation, and it's quite difficult to legally inconvenience people who park without authorisation without spending a lot of time and effort.

This is frustrating, but there are options. I'll report back what I end up deciding and how it works out in some time - it's always useful with these threads to see how things actually panned out :-)

waamo

Signs need to be illuminated for enforcement. Courts have regularly made this point.

They have to be visible and easy to read in the dark.

hartebeestfootprint

Signs need to be illuminated for enforcement. Courts have regularly made this point.

They have to be visible and easy to read in the dark.

You don't need an an illuminated sign for a sign to be "visible and easy to read" if there is other lighting. We have motion-activated floodlights in the parking lot. The signs we have that are ignored are easily readable under the floodlights. Planning permission isn't needed for motion activated parking lot lights.

nigelbb

hartebeestfootprint wrote: »

Not really relevant to a our staff carpark where all staff are allowed to park 24x7 and the photos are taken and submitted by the staff themselves.




This is the one that is up at the entrance to our carpark (we share a carpark entrance with the shop next door that uses FlashPark, though the lots are separate):

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4467.0;attach=5076;image
The sign seems pretty clear and straightforward. You wouldn't park under that sign and then be too surprised if you got a penalty notice in the mail unless you were in the "permitted" population, right? FlashPark requires a sign at each entrance and one sign per 3 bays, so the next door lot is plastered with them.

That sign is anything but clear and straightforward. It offers neither a contract for parking nor any legal basis for charging trespassers.

It is all but impossible to create a sign with wording that is legally waterproof. The problem is that there is no statutory control on parking on someone else's land & contract law needs to be perverted to concoct a justification for parking charges.

It's legally just as difficult to prevent someone persistently parking on the driveway of your house but ultimately the same solutions are available 1) gate or other barrier 2) sue for trespass 3) get an injunction. Only one solution is simple & cheap.

Snakes_Belly

I worked for a while in an office in a city. There was a very small car park and the post system was in place. It did not create any problems. This is just a suggestion but you could speak to the council and ask for a reduction particularly as there is going to be work in the high street. That could help pay for the posts.

Computersaysno

hartebeestfootprint wrote: »

I need to inconvenience people who park without authorisation, and it's quite difficult to legally inconvenience people who park without authorisation without spending a lot of time and effort.

No it's not....really it's not.


You seem to want to create your own PPC in all but name but baulk at the thought of direct action.

hartebeestfootprint

it's quite difficult to legally inconvenience people who park without authorisation without spending a lot of time and effort.

No it's not....really it's not.
You seem to want to create your own PPC in all but name but baulk at the thought of direct action.

All I want is as described in the original post - our bays free to access by our staff. Definitely not to create a PPC or a side business in suing for trespass.

What is your suggestion that legally inconveniences people who park without authorisation and is effective and doesn't take a lot of time and effort?