Will Brexit happen?

Filo25

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. The short reality is that a PM who has set is stall out to deliver Brexit 'do or die' by the end of October without any election is that he will be forced (or break the law unprecedentedly) to go to Brussels with an extension whilst at the same time demanding an election. Meanwhile, the primary objective of Labour to prevent a no-deal passes with the party looking united for the first since forever. Not only that, the chances of calling a no-confidence vote and then forming a unity government has increased.

Under what circumstances have events in the past 48 hours put Labour on the back foot?

My, quite possibly incorrect, reading of Johnson's strategy is he was trying to force exactly what happened, make Parliament block him on his apprent push for no deal, and help setup a People v Parliament election, with his as the populist champion of the people..

MaxiRobriguez

Filo25 wrote: »

My, quite possibly incorrect, reading of Johnson's strategy is he was trying to force exactly what happened, make Parliament block him on his apprent push for no deal, and help setup a People v Parliament election.

I don't disagree, but he wanted the election now, prior to Brexit (or any extension). He looks incredibly weak if he's forced to extend art.50 because lifelong moderate Tory's are standing up against him.

I would also hope that large swathes of decent people look at the proroguing of parliament and the sacking of decent, hard-working Tory MPs for what it is - a power grab by a ruthless PM who has no care for the state of the Tory party or what it stands for after Brexit is done, provided his job is secured and he is in power.

Parliament is sovereign, not one grubby handed PM being told what to do by an unelected Cummings who's never been a Conservative member let alone MP.

Thrugelmir

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

I would also hope that large swathes of decent people look at the proroguing of parliament and the sacking of decent, hard-working Tory MPs for what it is - a power grab by a ruthless PM who has no care for the state of the Tory party or what it stands for after Brexit is done, provided his job is secured and he is in power.

People just want an end to this endless washing machine spin of politics and to get on with their daily lives. This is only the start of a tumultous time one suspects.

May brought a deal to Parliament, no one liked it. Boris is trying to force the issue, no one likes it. What's left?

MaxiRobriguez

Thrugelmir wrote: »

People just want an end to this endless washing machine spin of politics and to get on with their daily lives. This is only the start of a tumultous time one suspects.

Again, I don't disagree, but a no-deal exit doesn't end matters, it simply resets the negotiating position albeit this time from a position of weakness as, if the Yellowhammer elements are anywhere near correct, we will be desperate.

At this point I'd like to point out I'm a leaver, not a remainer. I know this debate gets very partisan but it doesn't have to be.

The way I see it is that Boris is aware that he cannot get a deal through, and is aware that a no-deal exit doesn't carry a majority of support either in parliament or the wider population, so in order to prolong his term in office he's doing anything and everything he can, including undemocratic means and the sacking of friends and decent Tory servants, to bring about an election prior to that eventuality so he can sit in office for five years more than he otherwise would.

I think it's crass, and I don't believe Brexit itself is worth sacrificing our liberal parliamentary democracy for. If we accept this, what then? Our democratic system ceases to be. Some may argue that's a good thing, and I understand the frustation that would lead to that answer, but the reality is the thing that replaced it would a strongman president who has no concern for shutting down debate and ignoring laws passed. Is that really an acceptable position to end up in?

Herzlos

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What's left?

Admitting it's a disaster, withdrawing A50 and trying to solve the root issues rather than tackle the bogeyman that is the EU

MaxiRobriguez

Thrugelmir wrote: »

May brought a deal to Parliament, no one liked it. Boris is trying to force the issue, no one likes it. What's left?

The quickest solution would be a referendum between no deal exit and trade on WTO terms indefinitely vs a remain option.

It would ruffle a few feathers but the reality is in the initial referendum was fought by a leave campaign that never suggested a no deal scenario was possible, let alone likely.

Leavers would be frustrated, myself included, but I imagine most could be placated with actions taken after a remain vote if it occurred - namely a new written constitution, PR, making referendums absolute rather than advisory and moving Government out of central London.

Again, Brexit isn't worth burning our parliamentary democracy to the ground. If a general election or referendum happens such that the other side wins this time, fine, so be it, but they would need to not rest on their laurels and implement changes which could bring the country back together a little bit.

Herzlos

Thrugelmir wrote: »

You are a grown up. Plenty of information in the public domain. Upon which to form ones owns opinions. Corbyn has been around a very long time and holds views that are on the extremes.

Yet he's always managed to be on the right side of history. He's also not a tyrant and will go with what the party says. He also needs to get motions passed in Parliament. He's also not proposing half of the things the terrified right are accusing him of, if you actually read the details.

lvader

Many would disagree about the right side of history bit, he has sided with some very vile individuals. Anyway I'm sure his own party will eject him as soon as they can.

Thrugelmir

MaxiRobriguez wrote: »

Again, I don't disagree, but a no-deal exit doesn't end matters, it simply resets the negotiating position

There is no negotiating position. The EU wishes to protect it's borders. The UK will not accept a Customs Union set by Brussels. That's stalemate. Meanwhile the UK hands £744 million (net) a month to Europe.

Thrugelmir

lvader wrote: »

Many would disagree about the right side of history bit, he has sided with some very vile individuals. Anyway I'm sure his own party will eject him as soon as they can.

Momentum has control over grass roots. Momentum backs JC.