Will Brexit happen?

Thrugelmir

Moe_The_Bartender said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

Currently history appears to be being elsewhere. All happy to accept the UK's net contribution. However won't put their hands in their own pockets nor accept less funding for their favoured sectors. 
Diminishing remittances being sent home won't help either. 

There was a proposal put forward yesterday afternoon that €10bn could be cut from the EU budget by trimming their science and research programmes.

Helloooo. Wasn’t the EU science and research programme one of the reasons that so many UK academics voted remain?

Differences are more fundamental than simply trimming a specific budget. 

Herzlos

Fran_Klee said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

History written by historical fact rather than deliberate deception; fortunately the arrival of so many people into the country with no job or home waiting for them thanks to EU rules is historical fact.

Isn't it already fact that (a) those are a majority of migrants and (b) the EU already gives us the ability to remove them.

Herzlos

Moe_The_Bartender said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

Currently history appears to be being elsewhere. All happy to accept the UK's net contribution. However won't put their hands in their own pockets nor accept less funding for their favoured sectors. 
Diminishing remittances being sent home won't help either. 

There was a proposal put forward yesterday afternoon that €10bn could be cut from the EU budget by trimming their science and research programmes.

Helloooo. Wasn’t the EU science and research programme one of the reasons that so many UK academics voted remain?

It was, but science being made worse for everyone isn't a good thing. Now Brits lose twice (less brit funding for science, less scientific breakthroughs to benefit from).

Thrugelmir

Herzlos said:

Moe_The_Bartender said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

Currently history appears to be being elsewhere. All happy to accept the UK's net contribution. However won't put their hands in their own pockets nor accept less funding for their favoured sectors. 
Diminishing remittances being sent home won't help either. 

There was a proposal put forward yesterday afternoon that €10bn could be cut from the EU budget by trimming their science and research programmes.

Helloooo. Wasn’t the EU science and research programme one of the reasons that so many UK academics voted remain?

It was, but science being made worse for everyone isn't a good thing. Now Brits lose twice (less brit funding for science, less scientific breakthroughs to benefit from).

Money spent wisely and targeted . Should be the objective. Less money doesn't equate to poorer outcomes. 

Moe_The_Bartender

Thrugelmir said:

Moe_The_Bartender said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

Currently history appears to be being elsewhere. All happy to accept the UK's net contribution. However won't put their hands in their own pockets nor accept less funding for their favoured sectors. 
Diminishing remittances being sent home won't help either. 

There was a proposal put forward yesterday afternoon that €10bn could be cut from the EU budget by trimming their science and research programmes.

Helloooo. Wasn’t the EU science and research programme one of the reasons that so many UK academics voted remain?

Differences are more fundamental than simply trimming a specific budget. 

Indeed they are. We have often been told on these forums that the loss of the UK contribution will have an insignificant effect on the EU budget. It's plain to see that this was just another remainer lie.

So you have the Frugal Four plus Germany refusing to increase their contributions while the net recipients demand that their handouts are maintained or increased. The Visegrads and the other eastern countries are only committed to the EU as long as the money keeps rolling in.

This all means that trade talks between the UK and EU may not start for several months. And let’s remember that the Political Declaration commits both parties to reach agreement by the end of the year. If that doesn't happen, how likely is it that the UK government will impose checks on goods moving between the mainland and Northern Ireland?

phillw

Fran_Klee said:
fortunately the arrival of so many people into the country with no job or home waiting for them thanks to EU rules is historical fact.

In the new world of made up facts then sure.
Most immigrants come from outside of the EU and we had control over that.
We also had control over the EU migrants that didn't have jobs either.
We chose not to do so and then blamed the EU.

phillw

Moe_The_Bartender said:
Helloooo. Wasn’t the EU science and research programme one of the reasons that so many UK academics voted remain?

I doubt it.
It's more likely the inherent benefits to everyone of free movement. It will be a huge detriment to our society when that goes.

gfplux

Fran_Klee said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

Sailtheworld said:

Thrugelmir said:

gfplux said:

While the points based system appears a rushed job. Don’t you wish ministers would sit and think for 24 hours before they publish?

Just need to start to have the conversation. Refinements can follow as neccessary.

We need to start a conversation about immigration? Nothing but immigration has been discussed for three years and dominated discourse before that. It's clearly been rushed because even the Home Secretary who you'd think would've been involved in defining the contents isn't entirely sure what's contained within the HMG's Policy Statement. It's not a consulation document.

The dscussion has been about uncontrolled immigration not immigration per se. 

History is written by the victors eh?

History written by historical fact rather than deliberate deception; fortunately the arrival of so many people into the country with no job or home waiting for them thanks to EU rules is historical fact.

It is certainly true that EU citizens could arrive in the UK without proof in their pocket of a job offer however the majority went on to get a job and contribute to society.
if they didn’t those EU rules allowed them to be removed from the country. If Britain decided not to do this that is not the fault of the EU.
Perhaps you still don’t understand the difference between EU citizens and Refugees.
Refugees while waiting for asylum are not allowed to work.

gfplux

We will know by Thursday what the official negotiating position will be of both sides for a trade deal.
This from Politico.eu explains the next couple of days.
QUOTE

ASSUME THE POSITIONS: Britain and the EU will finalize their respective post-Brexit trade positions today ahead of the start of formal talks next week. Within the next hour EU27 ministers will start arriving in Brussels for a meeting to sign off Michel Barnier’s negotiating mandate, following weeks of internal debate. A short while later in London, Boris Johnson will gather his most senior Brexit-supporting ministers in Downing Street to confirm the U.K’s own negotiating stance. In theory there is goodwill in both Westminster and Brussels to make this all go smoothly; in practice, the two sides remain miles apart.

How today pans out: EU foreign ministers will begin arriving at the General Affairs Council from 7.45 a.m. U.K. time, and we may see some brief comments to camera from key players on their way in. The EU is expected to publish its mandate shortly after the summit is complete, and there’s a big press conference scheduled for around 1.30 p.m. Back in London, Johnson’s meeting with senior ministers on his “XS” (exit strategy) committee will take place entirely behind closed doors, with Britain’s negotiating position to be published and presented to parliament on Thursday morning.

In XS: What really jumps out now the negotiations are about to begin is just how fervently Brexiteer-y the all-important XS committee looks. The departure of Sajid Javid as chancellor means every single member of this critical decision-making group — Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Rishi Sunak, Dominic Raab and Suella Braverman — was a Vote Leave campaigner in 2016. The replacement of Attorney General Geoffrey Cox with Braverman, a former ERG chairwoman, brings an even more hardline feel to the room. And with senior No. 10 aides Dominic Cummings and Lee Cain also central to proceedings, this really is the Vote Leave government writ large. There will be no dissenting voices as Britain’s strategy is agreed.

END QUOTE

gfplux

From the same source this is what they think will happen next.
QUOTE

What happens next? Once the two negotiating positions have been finalized, formal talks between teams of U.K. and EU officials should begin early next week, rotating between Brussels and London over subsequent months. There’s an opportunity this summer to extend the talks for another year, but the British government has already made clear it has no interest in buying extra time. All being well, a comprehensive free-trade agreement between the two sides will be signed, sealed and ratified before the Brexit transition period ends on December 31.

Yeah, right: The problem with that, of course, is the gaping chasm that exists between the two sides, with Boris Johnson flatly rejecting the sort of close-knit trading arrangement envisaged by Brussels (and indeed by his predecessor Theresa May). Downing Street has banned ministers from even discussing an “ambitious” trade agreement with Europe, viewing such language as EU code for close alignment on rules and regs. Undaunted, the EU is still busily tweaking its demands for a so-called level playing field, under which Britain would sign up to its labor market standards and regulations covering the environment and state aid. It’s hard to see anything other than a major blow-up when the two sides finally meet.

Le bad cop: As with the first round of Brexit negotiations it is France which has taken on the bad cop role, pressuring the European Commission to toughen its level playing field demands to cover not just current but future rules and regs. The Times reports that a compromise deal among EU27 diplomats was struck in Brussels yesterday, with the final draft of the EU mandate insisting both sides must maintain “corresponding high standards over time.” POLITICO’s Barbara Moens says this text “will not be re-opened for further discussion” at today’s Council summit.

Coming attractions: France’s youthful Minister for Europe Amélie de Montchalin warned Boris Johnson yesterday that Paris will not be “blackmailed” into signing off anything it deems damaging to its farmers, fishermen or business leaders. She will be in London this Friday to deliver a speech at Chatham House, just a couple of days before talks get underway. What could possibly go wrong?

END QUOTE