If there isn't a hard-border what would stop Eastern European immigrants entering UK via Ireland??

kingstreet

movilogo wrote: »

3. Non-EU - legal

We take [3] out of discussion because nothing is changing there either.

So that's going to continue at a net 250,000 a year is it?

mayonnaise

Takedap wrote: »

I think that there's a delicious irony in the fact that while EU migration is falling, non-EU migration is rising.

I wonder what Barnsley Man makes of that. :rotfl:

Leave Voter Admits He Voted To 'Stop Muslims Coming Into The UK'

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-muslims_uk_576e558ce4b08d2c563937ff

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

movilogo wrote: »

[1] will come to halt (except for tourism).

Actually it won't.

The proposals currently in place would result in similar numbers entering and working, just under different visa schemes.

The reality is that Britain has run out of young workers to employ because we failed to breed enough of our own for the last 50 years.

Brexit won't change that reality.

Which is why the govt is planning a post-Brexit immigration policy that will in reality keep numbers broadly the same, no matter what the headbangers claim.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Autumn86 wrote: »

But so the core reason I voted Brexit is so that employers will eventually be forced to increase pay-rates for workers to be able to attract the staff they need.

:rotfl:

You are going to be very disappointed then... As EU migration has actually driven up wages on average*.... But leaving the EU will make us all poorer so likely to drive down wages versus where they'd otherwise have been.

(*and yes I know there has been a tiny negative impact for the very lowest paid 15% or so, but that's also been more than compensated for by changes to taxation and minimum wage)

Rich2808

phillw wrote: »

You can get on a plane without passport checks?

Yes - on Aer lingus you merely have to show photo id which could be a driving licence although in practice for Nicaraguans it will be a passport. But Its an ID check - which most will use a passport for - by the airline not a border check by the UK border force. Two different things! Ireland and the UK have common visa policies - if you are in one legally you can visit the other legally for tourism.

https://www.aerlingus.com/travel-information/passports-and-visas/travel-to-from-britain/

So you may show your Nicaraguan passport to check in and boarding staff of the airline as photo ID - but not to UK border controls when flying within the common travel area. I travel from Ireland regularly - and I can't recollect ever going through UK border force controls and am treated no differently to someone arriving from Aberdeen, Cardiff or Jersey in London.

If you arrive from Ireland to the UK on a plane you essentially go through domestic arrivals and don't get your passport checked. The Irish tend to the other way - hence me using the Dublin to UK journey.

So there are ID checks for airline security - as applies even to UK nationals travelling on domestic UK flights - but generally no border control checks by the UK government. Customs checks may possibly apply in future - but the common travel area will remain.

Can i just repeat EU FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM VISA FREE TRAVEL FOR TOURISM WITHIN THE UK, IRELAND, CHANNEL ISLANDS AND ISLE OF MAN COMMON TRAVEL AREA. And showing photo ID as evidence of identity to an airline is not the same as having your passport checked by the UK border force at point of entry - its for ID not immigration.

Some times you need to put things in caps so people get it! Nicaraguans citizens for examples can enter the UK and Ireland for 90 days without a visa for tourism and travel between the two nations freely - but they can't live permanently, work, use free state healthcare etc etc. Same will presumably apply to Poles and French people and Estonians post Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Nicaraguan_citizens

movilogo

I think that there's a delicious irony in the fact that while EU migration is falling, non-EU migration is rising.

EU migration = there is nothing UK can do and people thought leaving EU would reduce that

Non EU migration = entirely under UK's control but UK decided not to control

Here are some stats
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

Mind you, non-EU migrants are not allowed to claim benefits.

Rich2808

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

:rotfl:

You are going to be very disappointed then... As EU migration has actually driven up wages on average*.... But leaving the EU will make us all poorer so likely to drive down wages versus where they'd otherwise have been.

(*and yes I know there has been a tiny negative impact for the very lowest paid 15% or so, but that's also been more than compensated for by changes to taxation and minimum wage)

Has it really. Odd then as EU migration has fallen since June 2016 wages have finally started to move up in real terms after stagnating for a decade and more.

Its called market forces - if you have more supply (workers) and the same demand (jobs) the price the suppliers can get (wages/salaries) will fall typically.

Tammykitty

Rich2808 wrote: »

Yes - on Aer lingus you merely have to show photo id which could be a driving licence. Its an ID check - which most will use a passport for - by the airline not a border check by the UK border force. Two different things! Ireland and the UK have common visa policies - if you are in one legally you can visit the other legally for tourism.

So you may show your Nicaraguan passport to check in and boarding staff of the airline as photo ID - but not to UK border controls when flying within the common travel area. I travel from Ireland regularly - and I can't recollect ever going through UK border force controls and am treated no differently to someone arriving from Aberdeen, Cardiff or Jersey in London.

If you arrive from Ireland to the UK on a plane you essentially go through domestic arrivals and don't get your passport checked. The Irish tend to the other way - hence me using the Dublin to UK journey.

So there are ID checks for airline security - as applies even to UK nationals travelling on domestic UK flights - but generally no border control checks by the UK government. Customs checks may possibly apply in future - but the common travel area will remain.

Can i just repeat EU FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM VISA FREE TRAVEL FOR TOURISM WITHIN THE UK, IRELAND, CHANNEL ISLANDS AND ISLE OF MAN COMMON TRAVEL AREA.

Some times you need to put things in caps so people get it!

Ireland and the UK do not have common visa policies. There is a short stay visa waiver for Ireland for citizens of certain countries visiting the UK, and for Chinese and Indian citizens there is a joint visa scheme - but free travel between the 2 countries for tourists is not a given.


The CTA is not a joint visa scheme, and it gives citizens (not sure if it extends to permanent residents) of Ireland and the UK only the right to freely travel between the 2 countries, but anyone of a different nationally is not free to travel freely between the 2 countries.


The airport bus is occasionally stopped by immigration on the way over the border, to ensure people have the right to travel to NI/RoI.

Rich2808

Tammykitty wrote: »

Ireland and the UK do not have common visa policies. There is a short stay visa waiver for Ireland for citizens of certain countries visiting the UK, and for Chinese and Indian citizens there is a joint visa scheme - but free travel between the 2 countries for tourists is not a given.


The CTA is not a joint visa scheme, and it gives citizens (not sure if it extends to permanent residents) of Ireland and the UK only the right to freely travel between the 2 countries, but anyone of a different nationally is not free to travel freely between the 2 countries.


The airport bus is occasionally stopped by immigration on the way over the border, to ensure people have the right to travel to NI/RoI.

Yes - common but not identical. None of those countries you reference have visa free tourism rights to Ireland or the UK but EU nationals do as do citizens of Vanuatu and Nicaragua.

Nicaraguan and Vanuatu citizens have visa free travel rights to both nations for 90 days now. And so will Italians, Poles and Bulgarians post Brexit. Cos we really aren't going to start imposing tourist visas on EU nationals to come here- China and India do require visas for us and vice versa so its different.

There is of course theory and practice - as Irish arrivals are treated as domestic arrivals at UK airports so don't go through passport control. And there are no passport controls on the Belfast to Dublin train or as you cross both borders by car.

And leaving the EU isn't going to change that as while there may be a customs border there won't be a border force/passport border. That was the arrangement of course from 1922 to 1992 before the creation of the EU.

So this worry about Poles or Latvians sneaking across the border is a red herring - they won't be able to legally work here or claim welfare or use the NHS post transition but they can still be tourists unless they have settled status. Which is what this thread is about!! There is a theoretical border - but the UK border force don't enforce passport checks on arrivals from Ireland.

Takedap

movilogo wrote: »

EU migration = there is nothing UK can do and people thought leaving EU would reduce that

EU laws allow free movement of workers. Not unlimited migration. The UK government could have enforced the rules & removed people who could not find work. It chose not to.