If there isn't a hard-border what would stop Eastern European immigrants entering UK via Ireland??

Rich2808

michaels wrote: »

Currently Eire and the UK have a common travel area.

This makes little sense as there are nationalities who can enter Eire without a visa who would need one to enter the UK and others who do need a visa to enter Eire but would need a UK one to enter the UK.

Both these groups can cross freely from Eire to Northern Ireland currently, once they have entered NI they are there 'illegally' / without leave to remain.

Thus your question is redundant, it is already the case that people legally in Eire can cross the non-border into NI even though they would not have the right to be there.

More ever it is highly likely that after Brexit whilst we would want EU nationals to be subject to border checks it is unlikely we would fully record these checks at every point of entry so for an EU national to be in the UK without this having been recorded in some way would be unlikely to be taken as a sign that they had entered illegally anyway, thus no need for them to come in via Eire rather than just on a direct Ryanair flight.

As mentioned above the complaint/hostile environment is designed to ensure that those without leave to remain in the UK are prevented from taking part in society through work, benefits, health care etc.

European countries tend to enforce this via identity cards that often have to be carried widely so we would hardly be being draconian in continuing with this approach.

Thus for movement of people the 'hard border' is not an issue unless the EU prevents Eire from participating in the common travel area and they have to put in a border to prevent UK citizens heading south.

So a useful question from the OP but it is the movement of goods not people that is the issue.

Spot on - its a non issue There is a difference between visa free tourism and EU freedom of movement.

Citizens of Vanuatu and Nicaragua can fly to Dublin, enter without a visa for up to 3 months, head across the border to Belfast, get a ferry to Scotland and then fly down to Heathrow and leave now without any passport checks. What they cannot do is live in either nation permanently and work there and claim welfare and get free NHS care.

The same will apply we assume to eastern European nationals post the end of the Brexit transition period who don't have UK settled status. They will be able to live and work permanently in the Republic but not in the UK but they will have visa free travel to both countries for tourism.

So its a non issue - as we have a common travel area and common visa policies for tourism

phillw

Rich2808 wrote: »

Citizens of Vanuatu and Nicaragua can fly to Dublin, enter without a visa for up to 3 months, head across the border to Belfast, get a ferry to Scotland and then fly down to Heathrow and leave now without any passport checks.

You can get on a plane without passport checks?

zagubov

I'm flying this weekend on UK internal flights and I'll be using my passport and not even crossing the Irish Sea.

It feels like we're shifting towards a situation where a national ID system could be normalised. Aren't there apps being developed that can be used to prove your identity? We're already using apps as our boarding cards.

During a hospital visit, I was told my x-ray wouldn't be sent to my dentist; they assumed I would snap a photo of it on the spot (I'd left my phone in the car so more fool me).

Andy_L

phillw wrote: »

You can get on a plane without passport checks?

Internal flights it's just for ID (and you could use alternatives such as a UK driving licence) , I don't think they are checking visas at the same time

Dean000000

....nobody going to call to task the op’s reasoning for voting to leave?

Like ‘they’ are all going to disappear overnight....

In any case, I live in London, and take no issue to the ‘55%’ ‘non english’ here.

Instead I take issue to the small(er) percentage that armt paying their way.

However - allowing for some tolerance in figures. I’d rather have ‘55%’ ‘non english’ workers and contributors to society than the lay arounds that sponge of the state (there are ‘English’ people doing this too)

In fact, I’d happily replace every ‘english’ layabout for a non ‘english’ worker....very happily!

Though, I guess by the op’s rationale they would be happier if a bigger, badder, more bullish country just came and simply annexed a part of our country instead..... then threw up a wall.....

Sincerely - non english dean.

Autumn86

Dean000000 wrote: »

....nobody going to call to task the op’s reasoning for voting to leave?

Like ‘they’ are all going to disappear overnight....

In any case, I live in London, and take no issue to the ‘55%’ ‘non english’ here.

Instead I take issue to the small(er) percentage that armt paying their way.

However - allowing for some tolerance in figures. I’d rather have ‘55%’ ‘non english’ workers and contributors to society than the lay arounds that sponge of the state (there are ‘English’ people doing this too)

In fact, I’d happily replace every ‘english’ layabout for a non ‘english’ worker....very happily!

Though, I guess by the op’s rationale they would be happier if a bigger, badder, more bullish country just came and simply annexed a part of our country instead..... then threw up a wall.....

Sincerely - non english dean.

I would of loved it if 90% of the foreign nationals who have moved here over the last 5-7years did get deported back to their own country, yes.
Would never ever happen in reality ofcourse, so Brexit won't actually fix the immigration disaster that has plagued our county,
as the millions of eastern European immigrants are already here.

I'm not racist, and do ofcourse know that these people are typically extremely hard workers, willing to work long hours for low pay/no pay-rises, but THAT is the problem!
As they cause wages to be frozen at low levels, since employers have no need to pay higher salaries when they have an endless supply of good cheap labour from Poland.

But so the core reason I voted Brexit is so that employers will eventually be forced to increase pay-rates for workers to be able to attract the staff they need.

Herzlos

It'll still cost you more in the long run though. The cost of services is split across tax payers; less tax payers means more money each. Those hard working poles you don't like are subsidizing your council tax etc.
They also spend money in the economy and keep more things like shops viable. Less people in a community means less demand for everything and less money.

EU immigrants aren't all Polish or prepared to work for under the minimum waged, nor do they all live 30 to a flat and send every penny home.

I think Brexit is more likely to cause employers to lay off staff or move abroad, than to give staff raises. Even raises likely won't offset the increased costs of everything.

Dean000000

@autumn. Just a reality check. Over 87% of nhs workers are registered at British.

Around 5% are eu nationals. (According to House of Commons library)

I only mention this in relation to one your your previous threads about your nhs pay...so the ‘pay freeze’ bubble ‘they’ have created (in relation to your chosen career) is unlikely to have any affect on your personal circumstances.

It just so happens that a higher concentration of those work in London (as you do) so your perception may be slightly skewed.

Just saying....

Chrism03

Autumn86 wrote: »

the millions of eastern European immigrants are already here. I'm not racist, and do of course know that these people are typically extremely hard workers, willing to work long hours for low pay/no pay-rises, but THAT is the problem!
As they cause wages to be frozen at low levels, since employers have no need to pay higher salaries when they have an endless supply of good cheap labour from Poland..

By millions you mean just over 1 million

https://www.ft.com/content/14b558c8-6585-11e7-8526-7b38dcaef614

And doing the jobs that we can't / won't do

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/reviews/last-nights-television-the-day-the-immigrants-left-bbc1damages-bbc1-1909741.html

Takedap

I think that there's a delicious irony in the fact that while EU migration is falling, non-EU migration is rising.
Less Polish, More Pakistanis.
Less Bulgarians, More Bangladeshis
Less Italians, More Indians.


And the prospect of Sajid Javid becoming our first Muslim Prime Minister.


Tommy must be so proud....