Husband of tenants died, wife was given time to pay - now she is refusing to communicate

Pixie5740

Hurdler wrote: »

Mods - please delete this thread. I came to ask for advice and have had quite a bit of flak for hounding a widow - I have never even met the damn tenants. Sorry for trying to do the right thing but asking for advice for something I didn't know. Sorry for not being obviously as knowledgeable and wise as all of you here. Thanks for nothing.

You should know what you're doing before you become a landlord though. You're running a business and this is a forum for consumers.

G_M

As pixie says, this is primarily a forum for consumers. In the context of tenancies, that means the tenant.

So there tends to be a bias in favour of tenants (& the widow in this case would get a more sympathetic response!)

Having said that, we do try to guide landlords onto the straight and narrow too - hence my sticky at the top!

But for a more landlord-focussed forum, try landlordzone.......

Red-Squirrel_2

Hurdler wrote: »

Yep - Will do as soon as I get back and then will actually drive down to see her/managing agent to resolve.

Please don't go to see her.

Blackpool_Saver

Goodness no, you can't just turn up, you are going to be in big trouble. Please read up on the law

Red-Squirrel_2

Hurdler wrote: »

I am trying to give her as much leeway as possible but being self-employed myself three months is as much as I can manage without getting into financial difficulty myself.

You should never have rented the place out then, and its a shame you didn't come here for advice before doing so.

Hurdler

write to her, don't contact her
Talk to her, don't talk to her
Drive down, don't drive down.

I rented out the bungalow to help pay for my mother's care home costs when she had dementia and could no longer take care of herself. I never started this as a business. It was to find the money to get her the best care possible and ended up moving her to three homes in three months.

I have tried to be sympathetic towards the widow and this all came completely out of the blue when I asked the managing agents if there was any progress.

Learned some valuable lessons - this forum helped me become mortgage free and can be useful.

I am truly sorry for any mistakes I made in details - I have since edited as much as I can.
I have reported my original post and twice asked the mods to delete it - I hope they do shortly.

I have decided on a course of action, but to avoid getting more grief, I will just go about it and that will be that.

Thanks to those who did offer advice.

Sorry to have troubled any of you. MSE and the Mortgage Free Wannabe forum helped me enormously but now I remember why I never strayed out from there.

Pixie5740

The reasons for starting your lettings business are irrelevant. You're still supposed to know what you're doing and you could have sold the property. Rocking up there unannounced contravenes statutory law.

In any case I'm glad you've decided on a course of action.

Hurdler

Pixie5740 wrote: »

The reasons for starting your lettings business are irrelevant. You're still supposed to know what you're doing and you could have sold the property. Rocking up there unannounced contravenes statutory law.

In any case I'm glad you've decided on a course of action.

I have rented places out before so I do know and have always used managing agents to be on hand to actually manage the property and situation. However in the last few months my OWN circs have changed, certainly wasn't planned but these things happen in life. It isn't anyone's fault why these things hit people in life, but at the end of the day it is unfortunate that it has happened at this time.

I have reached out to her personally and provided information I thought she would find helpful in these circumstances - I see now from feedback that even THIS was wrong. Just thought it would help.

I wanted to show compassion and be fair, and indeed one of my friends pointed out she was lucky I was not a professional landlord. However, thanks to you and Red-Squirrel I can see that this was a massive mistake on my part. I needed to behave like a professional landlord and not as someone with any compassion whatsoever.

You two are absolutely right - As my circumstances just now dictate that this is not the right time to be renting a property, I will indeed serve the eviction notice as soon as she defaults which is in two days time. There is absolutely no reward for wanting to do the right thing when you are running a business.

Funny... all I asked was... did anyone know what the council would be able to do to help someone in her circumstances. Guess it is a good job I told her about Citizens' advice, social services, and for good measure I'll get the managing agent to let her know about this group as a forum for her to get help.

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Am I going to do all of that and kick a widow out... no of course I am not.
Is that a good business decision? Hell no. But at least I will be able to sleep at night.
Will I sell the flat after the leeway granted? I think that might prove to be inevitable.

Pixie5740

Hurdler wrote: »

I have rented places out before so I do know and have always used managing agents to be on hand to actually manage the property and situation. However in the last few months my OWN circs have changed, certainly wasn't planned but these things happen in life. It isn't anyone's fault why these things hit people in life, but at the end of the day it is unfortunate that it has happened at this time.

I have reached out to her personally and provided information I thought she would find helpful in these circumstances - I see now from feedback that even THIS was wrong. Just thought it would help.

I wanted to show compassion and be fair, and indeed one of my friends pointed out she was lucky I was not a professional landlord. However, thanks to you and Red-Squirrel I can see that this was a massive mistake on my part. I needed to behave like a professional landlord and not as someone with any compassion whatsoever.

You two are absolutely right - As my circumstances just now dictate that this is not the right time to be renting a property, I will indeed serve the eviction notice as soon as she defaults which is in two days time. There is absolutely no reward for wanting to do the right thing when you are running a business.

Funny... all I asked was... did anyone know what the council would be able to do to help someone in her circumstances. Guess it is a good job I told her about Citizens' advice, social services, and for good measure I'll get the managing agent to let her know about this group as a forum for her to get help.

...
...
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Am I going to do all of that and kick a widow out... no of course I am not.
Is that a good business decision? Hell no. But at least I will be able to sleep at night.
Will I sell the flat after the leeway granted? I think that might prove to be inevitable.

If she's not a tenant how can she default on the rent?

The tenant dying doesn't end the tenancy so you can't go kicking anyone out. I'm also not sure where you're getting that notice can be served after a tenant is 1 month in arrears.

Perhaps it is best for all concerned if you get out the landlord business if after letting several properties you still don't know how a tenancy can be legally ended.

Hurdler

Pixie5740 wrote: »

If she's not a tenant how can she default on the rent?

The tenant dying doesn't end the tenant so you can't go kicking anyone out. I'm also not sure where you're getting that notice can be served after a tenant is 1 month in arrears.

Perhaps it is best for all concerned if you get out the landlord business if after letting several properties you still don't know how a tenancy can be legally ended.

At this stage I DON'T KNOW if she was a co-signature on the tenancy agreement. I can't check until I am home. I assume she was because I specified professionals and they took the place on as a couple. I engaged a managing agent to manage the property and am going on what comes from THEM. They have been in contact with her and believe it or not they were trying to help her as much as they could.

Somewhere along the line something has broken down but I have no idea what - she was on good terms with them, grateful to both them and me for giving her time and now somehow that has completely broken down. At least that is the message I am getting from the managing agents. But as you say I can't just pitch up and find out for myself what is going on. And I have to go on what he tells me (which at times under the circumstances has seemed muddled).

I have checked with my own insurance - I did so as soon as I heard the news of the husband's death and they advised that the only way to receive the insurance payments of rent arrears was to serve the notice when she is one calendar month in arrears. As of writing she is not in arrears - she still has two days,

From what I recall in the initial conversations with the Managing agents, she was aware that she had to cover the rent, and was in the belief that her husband had insurance in place to cover rent when he was first in hospital. These things take time to sort out - hence communicating via the managing agents a period of leeway.

So it is my assumption that within the contract that they have with the couple- she is indeed liable for the rent, but that it was initially covered by the account from which he runs/ran his business - when she informed the bank that he had passed away and they froze the account, again I would have assumed they would have ensured she had means to live. That was the first thing they asked my mother when my father died - where did those payments come from - as it was . joint account it simply reverted to her name. This appears not to be the case here. I do not know why that is. I am not aware if she has a job or any other means of income. But they took on the agreement and should have ensured provision for rent - he believed he had done so.

She was his wife and not a guest that happened to be staying for a while, so I would be very surprised if she had not signed the agreement but I can't check that right now but I have asked the managing agents to confirm that with me.

In terms of your last response - fair point. I have never been in this particular situation before and the last property I actually sold it to the sitting tenants. Of course ... once his probate has been sorted and if she wanted to stay (which at the last communication I was made aware of by the managing agents, she did) then that too could have been an option.

There are just two many unknowns and I am just not in a position to answer all of the queries and I am very concerned how things seem to have broken down - but half way round the world there is little I can do until I am physically back in the country.

Things I have asked the MA:
1) Confirm both were on the tenancy agreement and that they (the managing agents) have not contravened any legal position by getting her to pay when she had no right to. If they have - then what are they going to do about it? How are they contacting the estate? What is their contingency in situations like these? I can't imagine this is the first time they have had a tenant die on them. What should they normally do?

2) Confirm to me exactly what they are progressing with the solicitors - all I know is they are meeting with them one day before she comes two months in arrears. Now to me it sounds like they have tried to give her time to catch up, she hasn't and they are just covering their bases as they are a business.

3) Confirm as much as able why she is seeking the council's assistance and what precisely for

4) Confirm why on earth she has gone from being on good terms with them to cutting them off - what did they do, exactly to change the status quo?

5) I know from my landlord's insurance end what I need to do to be paid the rent arrears insurance and was advised that obviously the decision WHEN to serve an eviction order is down to me,... but they will only pay once the eviction order is served and for my insurance it is after one CALENDAR month so in my mind it is due date late to the end of that specific month, so in theory it would be the beginning of February for me. The terms may well be different though for the managing agent - and at the end of the day they signed the tenancy agreement with them.

6) I did read the agreement when the tenant died, and it looked like the same terms for them. They have given her more leeway than they should as a business... not that I suspect their lack of commission from just one small property will leave them destitute! I know that she the first payment was late, he contacted her to say that an automatic letter was coming to advise them that they were late paying and failure to pay within a month would result in legal proceedings, so the contract they signed stated that... they signed it so legally she may not have a leg to stand on.

The issues I originally posted were... that there was no an apparent breakdown between them (which I can only resolve with meeting the managing agents in person, it seems) and wondering what the council would be able to do for her, if anything.

I personally would be prepared to stand by the leeway IF she was able to communicate what was going on - I understand perfectly well that right now it is all very overwhelming for her, but by the sounds of it you think she should be allowed to live rent free indefinitely...

I HAVE written to her with condolences and suggestions of where she might find help. What concerns me is the lack of communication and in cutting herself off and NOT talking to them she is inviting legal proceedings that she can ill afford to deal with right now.

Whether or not you feel I am not cut out for being a landlord is not at all the issue. What is the issue is what more can I feasibly do if I can't physically meet her to see what the issue is. I have to rely on the managing agents. If they have done something wrong, I can't see them admitting that on the phone or over email and the cynic in me wonders if they have done something wrong if by chance she was not a signatory on the contract. hence a F2F with them when I get back to see what the hell they did (if anything) to bring about this reversal in intention.

As you remind me - it is a business. So it doesn't matter now what leeway I was prepared to give her. The agreement suggests that on the first default, they are informed that legal proceedings will ensue unless payment is made, On the second I guess they go forward, I could stop that as someone pointed out to me. But you seem to take the view that unless I am prepared to act like this is a business, then I have no right being a landlord. So... I simply won't intervene now, and will let the managing agents pursue full legal proceedings as per the tenancy agreement.

It is obviously the right business decision and as you remind me - I have no right to be in business if I can't take these decisions. So thanks for changing my mind. Good job. :T