Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

The issue with Gina Miller was the view that a member of the wealthy middle class metropolitan elite was using hers and others money to impede the progress of democratic vote she didn't agree with, I see nothing to suggest that view on her motivations wasn't spot on.

Beyond being wrong, sure.


Miller wanted to prevent Brexit, because she feels it's a terrible idea, and was exercising her democratic right to do so. She did this by questioning in May (Prime Minister) could bypass Parliament or not. It was decided they could not, and Parliament had to vote. For this, her and the judges were branded traitors. So she's somehow undemocratic by expressing her democratic right and ensuring Parliament wasn't bypassed? That's hypocrisy at best.

As regards the right wing press, if their reactionary rhetoric was being mirrored by politicians then I would worried.

It will be - the reactionary and hateful rhetoric is gobbled up by the people who vote for the politicians.

None of that behaviour is what most sensible people would call fascist behaviour. If proroguing parliament is fascist, then your mate John Major is a fascist.

I disagree, there are clear fascist indicators there. proroguing Parliament to prevent them from voting on something sounds like the act of a fascist dictator. I don't know anything about Majors attempt so I can't comment.



edit: he closed Parliament early to delay the publication of a damaging report. I certainly don't approve and could consider it fascist, but it's not the same as suspending parliament to prevent them extending a deadline in order to get an unpopular action to occur, is it?

In the latest survey of European attitudes to immigration, the UK scored second in table of nations holding positive views. If there was a spike in sort of negative behaviour you describe then it was pretty shortlived.

There's no figures for 2019 yet but there's a clear trend:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48692863

What are your views on all those other countries in Europe with more negative views on foreigners than the UK, are they on cusp of fascism like we are?

Yup, fascism and the far right is on the rise. The UK is far from alone in that regard, and what they do doesn't make what we do any less bad.

I refer you to the upcoming EHRC investigation into anti-semitism in the British Labour Party. Is that who you mean by fascists BTW?

I could refer you to all of the investigations showing that Labour is no more anti-semitic than any other group of people. Or the open racism from the Tory party, but I feel it won't make any difference.

Tromking

Sailtheworld wrote: »

Yes, that's the party. The fact that some people struggle to see the nose on their faces doesn't change what the brexit party are about.

Try and remember you probably made exactly the same arguments about UKIP and played down their racist tendencies in the same way too - right until the point they employed Tommy Robinson as their diversity advisor or whatever.

You've been fooled once by UKIP. Get fooled by the Brexit Party and that's on you.

Facism is deplorable. What's the point you're trying to make? Our racists are 'nicer' than those foreign ones? That's what it looks like.

I'm making the point that bonafide fascists don't exist anywhere in British mainstream politics, but they do in Europe. The imaginary fascists in Britain bother you but the real ones in Europe dont it seems. Smacks of you making up stuff in attempt to portray Brexit as something it isn't.
Brexit killed UKIP stone dead and the hapless rump that were left desperately lurched to right in attempt to garner any semblance of popularity, they have systematically been destroyed in every election since. Hardly a country descending into fascism is it?
I know fascism, you patently don't.

Sailtheworld

Tromking wrote: »

I'm making the point that bonafide fascists don't exist anywhere in British mainstream politics, but they do in Europe. The imaginary fascists in Britain bother you but the real ones in Europe dont it seems. Smacks of you making up stuff in attempt to portray Brexit as something it isn't.
Brexit killed UKIP stone dead and the hapless rump that were left desperately lurched to right in attempt to garner any semblance of popularity, they have systematically been destroyed in every election since. Hardly a country descending into fascism is it?
I know fascism, you patently don't.

If, as you seem to think, fascists fall out of their mother's wombs with SS insignia and a funny walk then we've got nothing to worry about.

Part of the journey towards fascism is finding the hook that persuades otherwise good people to slap their hands over their eyes.

You voted for brexit - why that means you need to play down the contribution of the right to the leave win is beyond me.

I said fascism was deplorable by the way and, unlike you, you'll note didn't make a distinction between 'my' fascists and 'those' fascists.

Moe_The_Bartender

Zero_Gravitas wrote: »

He's not making it up, and you should stop being revisionist - it did happen:

https://www.thejournal.ie/uk-foreign-workers-3010573-Oct2016/

but there was a pretty sharp U-turn (even by the standards of the government):

https://euobserver.com/brexit/135419

I'm not being revisionist. There was never a proposal to list foreign employees. It was to name and shame companies who were not employing British workers. Still a stupid idea.

Tromking

Fortunately the pathological need by Remain voters to point and say fascist is your problem not mine. Just be thankful that the Brexit Party (your party of fascists!) disappears in approximately 90 days time.
Who are your fascists then?

StevieJ

LHW99 wrote: »

I understood one would not have been included without the court case.

So when does the UK actually leave?

The time-frame allowed in Article 50 is two years - and this can only be extended by unanimous agreement from all EU countries.
If no agreement is reached in two years, and no extension is agreed, the UK automatically leaves the EU and all existing agreements - including access to the single market - would cease to apply to the UK. If that happens, Brexit Day would be Friday, 29 March 2019.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39143978

StevieJ

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

I'm not being revisionist. There was never a proposal to list foreign employees. It was to name and shame companies who were not employing British workers. Still a stupid idea.

I am not sure what you mean, why do you say that that there was never a proposal to list foreign employees?

It also emerged that the Government was considering making firms draw up lists of the employees they had who were from overseas.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/news/82296/amber-rudd-foreign-workers-tory-conference-speech-recorded-%E2%80%98hate

Thrugelmir

Sailtheworld wrote: »

Part of the journey towards fascism is finding the hook that persuades otherwise good people to slap their hands over their eyes.

Was in Berlin last week. Went to the topography of terror, which is built on the site of the old Gestapo headquarters. The exhibition documents the rise of the poltitics behind Nazism following the end of WW1. Very balanced and informative. Suggesting that the UK is remotely close to such extremism is somewhat wide of the mark.

Arklight

There was a spike in hate crime after the referendum caused by the fact that every racist with a polling card voted for Brexit and got what they wanted.

The Leave movement has had three years to try and reconcile the existence of the tumour of racism in their ranks. So far they've come up with Boris Johnson and the Brexit Party. As well as some mealy mouthed excuses about how Europe's racists are worse than British racists.

Not once have I seen any condemnation of the demogoguic, dishonest xenophobia of the Tories, or the garden shed demented hatred that led to a far right fantasist killing Jo Cox due to her liberal values. After three years of watching right wingers refusing to condemn the indefensible one can only start to infer that they condone it.

phillw

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

The reason you can’t remember it is because it didn’t happen. Why do you keep making things up?

It didn't actually happen, but he said they wanted to & it appears they did.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/09/plan-to-force-firms-to-reveal-foreign-staff-numbers-abandoned

Why do you keep making things up?

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

I'm not being revisionist. There was never a proposal to list foreign employees.

There was, you even admit it in the same post. It's unclear whether it was individual names or just total numbers, I've seen both mentioned in media. It would appear to be pointless just revealing numbers, because they would be unverifiable.

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

It was to name and shame companies who were not employing British workers. Still a stupid idea.

They say not

She said the information would be confidential and instead used by the government to identify skills shortages, rather than to “name and shame” businesses that rely on foreign employees.

The policy was ill thought out and disappeared as soon as they realized that it revealed too much about their intentions.

Tromking wrote: »

I'm making the point that bonafide fascists don't exist anywhere in British mainstream politics, but they do in Europe.

They are just more honest in Europe.

Tromking wrote: »

The imaginary fascists in Britain bother you but the real ones in Europe dont it seems.

I care about stopping all the fascists, the best way is a united EU. Of course that was why the fascists in Britain had to destabilize the EU.

Tromking wrote: »

Smacks of you making up stuff in attempt to portray Brexit as something it isn't.

You are more desperate to portray Brexit as something it isn't, it's all negative and you need it to be positive to justify yourself. But it will never work, history will remember it for what it truly is whether you like it or not.

Tromking wrote: »

Brexit killed UKIP stone dead and the hapless rump that were left desperately lurched to right in attempt to garner any semblance of popularity, they have systematically been destroyed in every election since. Hardly a country descending into fascism is it?
I know fascism, you patently don't.

The fascists that jumped from conservatives to UKIP because of Nigel Farage, then jumped to Brexit party because of Nigel Farage, they'll jump back to the conservatives when Nigel Farage retires from politics.

52% of the referendum voters was a shock, it does sound like descending.

If you aren't fascist then how about a second referendum, fascists hate the idea of that & so I'm sure you'll love the idea of more democracy.