Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

SpiderLegs

phillw wrote: »

But why would you take it, when there is no upside to leaving the EU?

It's like choosing to self harm purely on the basis that it won't actually kill you.

I feel really sorry for the people who are in a desperate situation that can't cope with any thing getting worse and were pinning their hopes that voting to leave would actually have some benefit to them.

The OBR report shows that we'll be worse off for at least 5 years and doesn't make any suggestion of when we would recover. I am with JRM that we may not see an upside for 50 years.

Is that honestly why all the people voted to leave?

You don’t believe in any upside and you think everyone who voted Leave is a racist. There’s very little point in engaging with that kind of mentality I’m afraid.

I'm following Aaron Banks example, without the blatant lying to manipulate people (that he admits to doing BTW)

Sorry mate, you’re not that important. I meant Hammond.

Enterprise_1701C

Our contribution to the eu went up by £2.6 billion this last year.

The upside of leaving is the fact we will not have to have Germany and France deciding what happens to our country, I do not want to be a part of a us of e.

phillw

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Our contribution to the eu went up by £2.6 billion this last year.

and by leaving that money just disappears and more, due to the one time hit and ongoing hit to our economy.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

The upside of leaving is the fact we will not have to have Germany and France deciding what happens to our country, I do not want to be a part of a us of e.

So you share the fascist view of less democracy is better? Or is it because of distrust of foreigners? Having the EU force us to raise basic rights to compete on a level playing field would seem like a good thing, no?

adindas wrote: »

Is that the feature of fascism ?
Definition of fascism.
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

Ending freedom of movement, ending membership of the european parliament and european courts, the treatment of Gina Miller and the supreme court judges, proroguing parliament. It's all there for everyone to see. 52% of the people who voted in the referendum are cheering them on, although that is actually a minority of the population for various reasons.

Seems worth fighting against.

Herzlos

adindas wrote: »

forcible suppression of opposition"

That would cover the "enemies of the people" stuff, surely? The death threats for Miller who's campaigning for Parliamentary sovereignty? The branding of anyone who doesn't believe in Brexit as a traitor?

Moe_The_Bartender

phillw wrote: »

Ending freedom of movement, ending membership of the european parliament and european courts, the treatment of Gina Miller and the supreme court judges, proroguing parliament.

That’s your definition of fascism, is it?

Freedom of movement applies to a small fraction of this planet's inhabitants who will still be able to come and go in exactly the same way as everyone else.

A European Parliament that is a talking shop which rubber stamps decisions handed down to it just like the Duma in The USSR.

The treatment of Gina Miller. Has she been sent to a concentration camp or something or is she still out there freely disseminating her opinions?

Proroguing Parliament? Have I missed something? When did that happen?

Poor you.

phillw

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

That’s your definition of fascism, is it?

I said the rise of fascism, those things are very good reflections on the rise of fascism before WW2. Even the nazi's didn't start off gassing the jews on day one, they got the people thinking in fascist ways (like leave.eu, daily mail etc did) first.

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

Freedom of movement applies to a small fraction of this planet's inhabitants who will still be able to come and go in exactly the same way as everyone else.

It's the sentiment for why you want to end freedom of movement. I personally would like to see the borders opened up to allow more freedom of movement if we can expand the EU to more countries. That really gets the fascists blood boiling.

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

The treatment of Gina Miller. Has she been sent to a concentration camp or something or is she still out there freely disseminating her opinions?

She is, but the fascists (Nigel Farages, Daily Mail etc) performed a pretty good hate campaign against her and the judges. Cheered on by a growning number of fascists in the country.

Moe_The_Bartender wrote: »

Proroguing Parliament? Have I missed something? When did that happen?

The fascists are calling for it, are you that unaware?

People want to think like a fascist but not to have the bad feeling of identifying as one. You don't get a free pass. I understand how devastating that must be for you.

Tromking

Anyone else think our Phil wouldn’t know a proper fascist even if one goose-stepped up to him dressed in a SS uniform and showed him his Labour Party membership card?

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

Anyone else think our Phil wouldn’t know a proper fascist even if one goose-stepped up to him dressed in a SS uniform and showed him his Labour Party membership card?

Nope, I think he's got a pretty good idea of what makes a fascist. He seems spot on and the historical similarities are striking. A lot of the propaganda and wording is alarmingly similar.



As said, the Nazi party didn't turn up goose stepping and killing outsiders. They started as a party of the oppressed people in a depression, where everything was blamed on the "others", and slowly morphed into the monstrosity that's tragically not been condemned to history.


Gina Miller is absolutely hated by the right wing, because some people see any attempts to give Parliament a say as a direct attack on Brexit and therefor democracy. The judges that agreed with her on A50 had their faces on the front page of the right wing rags with headlines like "TRAITORS" and "ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE!"


You have people like Farage talking about picking up a rifle and heading to the front lines to fight for Brexit days after Jo Cox was murdered for opposing Brexit. You have people like Mogg and Johnson threatening to prorogue Parliament so that we time out on the A50 extensions, and it being praised by the people who want to leave to uphold democracy. You have the government (I can't remember the department) wanting to force companies to publish lists of the foreigners they hired.



Reports of racist and xenophobic attacks escalated drastically after the vote as racists were empowered. The anger the neglected public was harboring has been redirected to those "others", in this case foreigners and the EU rather than the government causing the problems.



Anyone who is familiar with history can see a lot of similarities and can make a reasonable guess as to where things are heading.





I'm also amused that you somehow equate fascism (usually right wing) to Labour (clearly left wing). Can you cite any kind of link between the 2?

LHW99

I personally would like to see the borders opened up to allow more freedom of movement if we can expand the EU to more countries.

In an ideal world, so would I, however our world is still far from that unfortunately, and the idea of no border checks allowing free travel to criminals and terrorists feels threatening. Rather like crime statistics - you may be very unlikely to suffer from an act of violence, but the fact that these acts happen in the current system makes many people worry about reducing checks.
Gina Miller's original court case may be yet another example of the unintended consequence. I believe there would not have been a leaving deadline date put into legislation without it, meaning there would probably not have been the succession of "cliff edges" we have had, and may well continue to have for some time.

kingstreet

Herzlos wrote: »

Anyone who is familiar with history can see a lot of similarities and can make a reasonable guess as to where things are heading.

It's the frog in the pan analogy.

Put a frog in a pan of boiling water and it will jump out. Put it in a pan of cold water and slowly raise the temperature it will eventually die.

The temperature is being raised slowly and as it stands we are hearing thoughts and ideas being voiced I thought long-dead, or at least left unsaid in the society I thought we lived in.

There are nasty things brewing at both extremes of the political spectrum at the moment, not just on the far right and it's likely to get worse.